18 10 544 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/e4911694ff8aac4c296c7b0a714b74e3.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/e09cfcf6eed351406ea5238a7b765fe1.mp4 7907c34c84587d84f5e2bb03e0f622ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000031_A Title A name given to the resource Parker, William Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971-03-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/d7593d2496237b828aeaa7966926144f.jpg cc0c4f909af1a8ef79e706ad5968148a https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/52b4d077287a60a9734341464ade2784.mp4 b7164f6fdffd367a1c25591523068700 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Christensen, David Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_crst_000018_A Title A name given to the resource Palaoro, Hans Description An account of the resource Experiences at Peenemunede in developing propulsion systems. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971-04-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/52c8ddae01c0229e935bb995efa8af81.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/3d51647171809abd33bff8f5e857b295.mp4 9400e415005681e262b951258a1e26e2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed O'Neal, Adrian P. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bilstein, Roger E. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:15:44 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [00:00:00] Adrian O’Neal: One thing that evolved—at least that I recognize evolving—when I started the S-IVB program to time now—which ten or eleven years—has been the breaking down if you will—or whatever term you want to use for it—of the barriers from company to company to company. I noticed it significantly from the time we started on the S-IV contract when at that time back in the middle ‘50s if someone from North American, Boeing, or Grumman, or any other aircraft company wanted to come in and talk with us, he was discouraged first. Usually we didn't tell him everything we knew anyway when we sat down and vice versa. I think probably if you talk to some engineers that have gained most of their experience during the Apollo program, you'd find that they're pretty free with themselves, with other companies, and their experiences. [00:01:20] Roger Bilstein: Was there something too that began to generate about the middle part of the ‘60s, ‘64-‘65, as things really began to pick up? [00:01:31] AO: Yeah, I’d say a point in time, I'm not sure, but I don't know if it was the middle ‘60s. Probably so. Probably the time the Apollo program really sprung out. See, because we worked on the S-IV from ‘60 to…I guess we lost the first one in ‘64. At the time we launched it, it was essentially going out of business, and everyone knew it, so it was probably ‘64-‘65. [00:02:11] RB: Could you make some comments about the evolution and difference of materials used in the S-IVB? You used a different kind of aluminum in the skirts, right, than you did in the tanks? I was wondering if you could make some comments about the design parameters that dictate these kinds of decisions. [00:02:35] AO: Well, to be honest with you, I've forgotten. I imagine that we used 75—what's now called 7075-T6 aluminum—in the skirts and inter-stages. If that's correct, I could find out before you leave. That's a carry on of the aircraft days because the 7075-T6 aluminum was really developed for commercial airplanes. I know they use it on military airplanes also. It has even better strength properties than 2014, but it's not weldable at all. Anytime you have use for aluminum where you don't need to weld it, you're going to rivet it or bolt it, that type of thing, we generally have gone to 7075-T6 for its better strength properties and hence lighter weight. [00:03:56] RB: What happens when you…Does 2014 become a better material under cryogenic temperatures? Do I remember that correctly from some [point?]? [00:04:08] AO: Well, in fact, almost all materials become stronger as you lower the temperature, the physical properties rise. Some materials exhibit an increase in brittleness as you decrease the temperature. In fact, I guess almost all of them do—some worse than others. Twenty fourteen does lose some of its elongation. Some people try to say that makes it more not sensitive [sic] and all this type of thing. To be just factual, it gets stronger at lower temperatures, and it also loses elongation. We used it. There's only one place on the S-IVB where the 2014 aluminum ever gets to hydrogen temperatures. That's in the forward face of the common bulkhead. See, we used internal insulation in the hydrogen tank, and hence the aluminum never gets lower than minus 100, minus 150 degrees. The LOX tank, of course, gets to minus 300 degrees, but we felt like we had a lot of experience with that on the Thor. In fact, I guess some of those Thors were built—if I remember my numbers right—a Delta was not too long ago. It had a first stage—a Thor—which was built back in about the late 50s, which kind of tells you the material doesn't degrade with time anyway. [00:06:08] RB: Well, what happens when you start adding the effective engine thrust on some of these materials? Did you, you know, when you fire off the J-2s and so on, did you have any difficulties working out some of these relationships with people at Rocketdyne or again, is that a fairly straightforward engineering approach? [00:06:31] AO: No, it's fairly straightforward because we'd worked with Rocketdyne before on the Thor program. They built the engine for Thor. It was so straightforward, and the interfaces were established that both of us knew where the interface was and who was to supply the designs and hardware on either side and how they had to make together. Of course, when we started using the J-2—first our battleship program in Sacramento and then on the stages of Sacramento—Rocketdyne had a contingent of field engineers there working with us. In fact, we had a man stationed at Rocketdyne, like several, during the development part of the S-IVB, just to make the exchange of information better. [00:07:36] RB: Did Rocketdyne supply the thrust structure? Was that part of their…? [00:07:39] AO: No, we supplied the thrust structure, but the interface is established essentially at the gimbal block because the J-2 engine had the gimbal mechanism—at least the load carrying part of the gimbal on the engine—then the electrical interfaces and the two fluid interfaces—LOX and hydrogen. We supplied the actuators. The actuators were used to really actually gimbal—move the engine and the thrust structure to our tank. [00:08:29] RB: Somewhere too now—I’m just remembering it—it seems to me I read that Von Braun at one time just wasn't happy about liquid hydrogen. I forgot if this was the time Centaur began running into trouble. Do you remember anything about that? Did you run into any problems along those lines? [00:08:49] AO: Well, I remember that there was a fair amount of consternation about the time Centaur tried to fly the first couple of times. That's about the point in time we had the S-IV coming along. We learned some things with that. We learned how to put hydrogen into a big tank. It was about the first time we tried, we almost collapsed all the pressure inside it so that…We didn't ruin the tank, but we buckled it a little bit and made us all stop and sit back and think. We learned to do that. I don't remember Dr. Von Braun ever being afraid to use it. I'm sure he was worried about it after the Centaur. [00:09:43] RB: The impression, and I forgot [inaudible], somebody was talking to me that the…There was a feeling maybe that liquid hydrogen was maybe too far advanced, would be better stick with some sort of uprated H-1 or RL-10…Not RL-10, but H-1 or F-1 engine, something like that. [00:10:04] AO: Personally, I never heard him express that kind of sentiment. [00:10:17] RB: I had a question in the back of my mind now, and I've forgotten what I was going to ask you. You mentioned you had some problems with early tanking, did this create a real difficulty at the very beginning? Because as you said you hadn't handled this quantity of stuff before. [00:10:35] AO: No, it didn't. The actual incident occurred when we built what we called an all systems S-IV stage—which essentially was flight weight tanks, real RL-10 engines but with not all flight electronics and so forth on the stage to control it—and took it to Sacramento and one of the first…Well, we married it also there with the GSE or the loading equipment that was going to be used at the Cape when it came time to fly. The first time we tried to flow liquid hydrogen into the tank, we theorized later that we came into the tank with a big slug of liquid hydrogen, and it went up into the tank and of course cooled all the gas inside the tank down very rapidly, causing the pressure inside the tank to go below ambient pressure, which then collapsed the part of the tank. As soon as we figured that out, then we changed the loading procedure so that we made sure that we had good phase, good change between flowing gas into the tank and liquid. As I remember, it just slowed down and increased the length of time that we flowed liquid hydrogen gas through the lines into the tank and out and out the vent, so that we cooled everything down before we actually got liquid coming into it. [00:12:30] RB: Can you remember any particularly humorous things that happened that stand out in your mind? [00:12:42] AO: [laughs] There must be hundreds. [tape cuts out and restarts] I think once we started flying men in Apollo—at least as far as the S-IVB crews went, and I think this last launch is the first one I haven't been either to Cape with or in Houston—the S-IVB anyway performed so long that the guys were just completely whipped by the time the IVB part of the mission was over, and they just didn't feel up to having any big parties. If you go way back in time after things like Thor when the Thor philosophy kind of was build them fast and shoot them and find out your problems, so we had a few failures intermingled with some success. When you have a success, the people really did kind of let go. One difference with the guys that I've been associated with on the IVB is that they just physically couldn't stand it because the counts almost always picked up ten or eleven hours before liftoff. By the time they went through a normal count liftoff and then six or seven hours of S-IVB performance, they had stretched their waking time out to eighteen or twenty hours, and they were in really not much shape to go out and do too many things. [00:14:34] RB: That's interesting about the Thor program—build them and shoot them off and accept the failures. [00:14:41] AO: There is a school of thought…In fact, you can probably still find some people today that as long as you don't have a man involved where you're really risking life that would argue with you that you can develop a program quicker and cheaper by just building and flying rather than going through all the extensive testing that we went through in the Apollo program. I'm not sure who's right. There are two camps to it. The Thor camp really was kind of that. We ran very little development testing before we actually tried to fly the first one. [00:15:30] Beginning of Morata (Part 1) recording [Tape ends] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000030_A Title A name given to the resource O'Neal, Adrian P. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. Description An account of the resource Adrian O’Neal’s interview discusses the evolution of the S-IVB program, focusing on changes in engineering practices, materials, collaboration, and lessons learned during the Apollo era. O’Neal describes how the Apollo program helped break down barriers between aerospace companies, creating a more open exchange of technical knowledge compared with the secrecy and competition common in earlier programs. He explains material choices for the S-IVB stage, noting the use of high-strength aluminum alloys such as 7075-T6 in areas where welding was unnecessary and 2014 aluminum in cryogenic applications, while discussing how materials behave differently at low temperatures. O’Neal highlights the importance of close coordination with Rocketdyne during J-2 engine integration, with engineers from both organizations working together to resolve interface and design issues. He also reflects on early challenges with liquid hydrogen technology, including an incident where improper tank loading procedures caused pressure loss and partial tank collapse, leading engineers to develop improved methods for safely handling cryogenic propellants. O’Neal notes that concerns about liquid hydrogen existed during the early Centaur and S-IV programs but that experience ultimately proved its viability. He contrasts the rapid, failure-tolerant development approach of earlier programs like Thor with the extensive testing and reliability requirements of Apollo, emphasizing that human spaceflight demanded a much more cautious engineering philosophy. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/a58582aecabf3314568036cb9360031e.pdf aae62c3e13932d5e71179e7b53e4b3de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000029_T Title A name given to the resource Neubert, Erich W. (Transcript) Description An account of the resource General Saturn development and programs, benefits of earlier programs, contractor and vendor relations. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971-08-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/1439acc4423ad780f2be458091d5279e.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/edb08d4a75b12b8ddca1a63d0f9cd53f.mp4 12b4b938f605251636d51177f0f20564 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000029_A Title A name given to the resource Neubert, Erich W. Description An account of the resource General Saturn development and programs, benefits of earlier programs, contractor and vendor relations. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971-08-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/0d46327185983f8a7899419594d6f9de.pdf ac968afa5bbcd39af80ac3223a1ef1db Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000028_T Title A name given to the resource Mrazek, William A. (Transcript) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971-08-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/6c8e3923cafcaf6e88e987647b7b6ade.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/0713ce620ec317e87bee5c5755b2380f.mp4 e5df4e126c629e9f39f048effe50b16f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000028_A Title A name given to the resource Mrazek, William A. Description An account of the resource General Saturn development and problems, contractor relations. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971-08-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/9e4260a0e0fbaa94b36da9e53a1bb682.pdf fe12d5421f7cb52a3a651a94cb048bb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000027_T Title A name given to the resource Morata, Lorenzo (Transcript [Part 2]) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/432ed16143074011e756a13c595a7730.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/f1c575a49f9f6cd61bbcf8404e28a9bc.mp4 afd2a4051c83ee98092b1a259a4941a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000027_A Title A name given to the resource Morata, Lorenzo (Part 2) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/44264f1722945731e1d5a9cf52090426.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/5ec6261f9cb85928a74f5849c5646399.mp4 51db09bd2de50e1211d750fcb9e1d267 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Morata, Lorenzo Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bilstein, Roger E. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:15:49 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Morata Part 1 [00:00:00] Roger Bilstein: Okay, maybe you could just…If you would start by telling a little bit how you got on the Saturn program and what you did when you first started and what you've been doing since. [00:00:13] Lorenzo Morata: Fine, fine. I graduated from the University of Oklahoma in 1960—June of 1960—and I came to work at the McDonnell Douglas, which at that time was the Douglas Aircraft Company-Missiles and Space Division. I went to work for…About the first four months that I was with the company, I worked on the Delta program, which was located at Santa Monica, and they were in the development of electronic black boxes. My first love at that time was I was an electronics design engineer supposedly when I got out of college, and I wanted to do a lot of initial design with transistors and this kind of circuit design kind of aspect. I requested to be transferred to the Saturn program. I went over on the Saturn program around November of 1960, which was pretty close to the initial design phase of the Saturn program. I believe the company had gotten a contract right about that summertime, and at that time I went to work in what they call the electronic design section. I worked on part of our propellant utilization system, which was developed for the S-IV program. The propellant utilization system at that time was a closed-loop type of system that maximized or minimized the residuals between the LOX and the hydrogen tank on IVB. What it did was regulate both the LOX flow in relationship to the hydrogen flow to make all both masses deplete at the same time and end up with minimal residuals. Therefore you could optimize payload kind of considerations. [00:02:04] RB: Is this where this propellant utilization capacitor comes in? [00:02:07] LM: Yes, yes. And the propellant utilization capacitor, as we know it, are continuous probes. In the LOX tank, it's one continuous probe, which is about twenty-some feet. In the hydrogen tank, we have one continuous probe, which is about forty feet. It's made up of two sections. What this does is give you a continuous monitoring reading device, which you're able to tell at any time what the mass in the tank or what level in the tank it is. As one depletes, it actually triggers the other one. We have a LOX valve going to the main engine. What happens is, as a function of what's happening in the hydrogen tank, there's an error between that probe and the LOX probe. The LH2 probe and the LOX probe compare itself and give you an error signal, which then is closed-loop transformed to open up the LOX valve or close it as a function of what mass is going through the hydrogen side of the engine. If it's going fast or slower, it always optimizes a certain mixture ratio. In our case, it's 5:1. What I did on that particular system—it was an analog computer device—and what I did for that system, the analog computer requires different voltages, both AC and DC voltages. My responsibility at that time was to design what we call—it was really a power supply—it's called an inverter/converter. What that means is that you take twenty-eight volts from a battery, and it converts it to AC voltages, which at that time we required something like 115 volts and 400 cycles to drive our servo motors, and one was on the LOX circuit. We had a valve on the LOX side of the engine, which was driven by a motor for opening and closing as a function of what was happening in the hydrogen tank. [00:04:18] RB: This is on the side of the engine. [00:04:19] LM: Right, it's up on the turbos. It's not on the side of the engine. It's coming down the line. It's on the pump on the engine. It's near the engine. It's sort of like a valve right in coming down from the tank to the engine. What you do is bypass some of the LOX and control it—either open it or shut it—to let more LOX or less LOX flow through. By regulating the LOX flow as a function of what's happening to the hydrogen side, you always make sure that the mixture ratio between LOX and hydrogen is 5:1. By doing that, by setting the mixture ratio to a constant number like that, what you're able to do is then deplete both masses at the same time. You load for hydrogen, and you load for LOX, and what you like to do is, at the end of mission, just be at zero, so you don't have to carry a lot of extra weight as far as LOX or hydrogen, and you can use all that for payload. If you can accurately predict how much mass you have to have to meet your mission and then make sure you use every drop of it, that's going to optimize how much payload you can put on because you don't have any extra mass weight around at the end of the mission. [00:05:41] LM: Now, the inverter also, at that time, put out 115 volts, 400 cycles, plus it changed a lot of voltages DC-wise. You needed some different ranges of DC voltages like fifteen volts, twenty-five volts, five volts, and that's where you call it an inverter/converter. In one case, you usually end up changing DC to AC and DC to different levels of DC. Start out with a twenty-eight volt battery, and you can end up with 115 volts, 400 cycles for driving motors or lights or those kinds of things. You end up with different DC voltages like they want to shave, you know, you got a twelve volt battery, a five volt battery, a six volt battery. I designed that, designed/developed. I was the system engineer as well as the design engineer for that portion of the inverter/converter. It was a black box by itself. I did all the design on it circuit-wise. Then I was involved when we were laying it out mechanically from an RFI standpoint, radio interference standpoint, the packaging involved with it, plus the development of it, how we were building it in the shop, how we were qualifying it. I brought it through the whole gamut of checkout when we put it on the bird, and we married it to the propellant utilization electronics. When it went into checkout, I was instrumental in following that one through. At that time, it gave you a pretty good feel. At that time, I was the design guy, the systems engineer kind of guy that carried that design all the way through. I was involved in the initial design concept as well as the development and qualification of both the inverter and the PU systems for that matter. [00:07:36] RB: One of the things that we're interested in is the evolution of technology in this aerospace, especially the Apollo thing. Was there any kind of similar system in development in the Centaur as the only other real liquid hydrogen vehicle? [00:07:52] LM: No. At that particular time, I think, and that was done just before I had gotten here, there had been a canvassing made of the industry as far as propellant utilization systems were concerned. I think our concept was the first one where we continuously monitored a closed-loop system. Before I think the Centaur, and I can't speak with a lot of…I don't know what the Centaur system was at that particular time, but I know that they probably used level sensors. I don't know if the Atlas uses level sensors where there are discrete points, not a continuous probe. [00:08:37] RB: Yeah, and boy, this is really out of my mind here, but how is this continuous probe…How do you get the feel out of it? [00:08:47] LM: Well, what happens is electrically, when you build it, when you manufacture it, they can give you a calibration. Just like any other tool that you can calibrate it in the lab, and you know what it is actually in the lab. When we buy it—our particular manufacturer of the probes is Minneapolis Honeywell—and when they design it, they can design it so that you know it's so much capacitance change. Sort of like a thermometer kind of concept is, you know if it goes up—the mercury goes up so far—it's at a certain point. The vendor can build it so he knows what its capacitance is from the tip bottom to the top of the probe. That's really what we're interested in is a change of capacitance. He can tell you when he builds it, and he calibrates it, he'll tell you, “Okay, this point at the bottom, which we consider our empty point, is this capacitance, and as you fill it, you'll get a change of capacitance.” He can calibrate it for you. He'll check it out in his lab before he sends it to us. When we put it inside our tank, we know what it is at the bottom, which is our empty point. What we get…Capacitance is really electrical signal. We receive a very minute electrical signal from the probe, and that's what excites our electronics. As we fill from the bottom of the probe up, this mass changes the dielectric of the probe, and we get a change of capacitance. That change of capacitance stimulates the electronics. We know as we get this much change, we've got that much up above the empty point. Then we also know where the top of the probe is, and we know the tank geometry. Okay? Then we can correlate as the mass goes up the probe, the capacitance changes. We correlate that till we know how far that point or any point is above the bottom of the probe. Then we know what the tank geometry is, and we know how much can go in there, so we know that there's enough mass up here. [00:11:03] RB: That comes to you as an automatic readout. [00:11:05] LM: Yes, we get an automatic readout. This signal goes into our propellant utilization electronics, and those send a signal back to the ground to a computer that says, “Okay, you've got so much mass inside the tank at this point.” Okay? We've got ways to electronically look at it so we know where we are inside the tank. As you fill that up, you'll get a reading back in the block house, and you'll know exactly where you're at. The same thing, as we deplete down, both in flight and when we go through a static firing or when we go through a countdown demonstration test at the Cape, when we deplete, we see the same thing happening in reverse. We get a change back, and we can tell where we are until we're down at the bottom. It's a continuous reading, and I think that was one of the key factors that I think our design or our system helped evolve was that you could tell at any point in time. Up until that time, you had what they call, you could have level sensors, which are really discrete points. You can have a small capacitor at the bottom of the tank, one ten feet above that, one twenty feet above that, thirty feet above that. As your mass goes across that capacitor, you have a change of state, which also comes out as a function of voltage or some electrical signal. As the mass changes, your dielectric changes, your capacitance changes that gives you a different electrical stimulus to the ground so you know, hey, it was dry before, now it's wet. You know you've got that much mass. Then you keep on loading, and you won't know where you are until the next one picks up. Now, you could end up putting as many of these discrete points as you wanted to. You could put one every foot. [00:12:58] RB: That's going to ask you about that, okay. [00:12:59] LM: You could put one every foot or every ten feet or every twenty feet. But then you'd have to have different electronics for every one of them, so your system would be more complicated. You'd have to have wiring inside the tanks for every one of those things. You'd have to have connector feed-throughs. Your system could get more complicated. Just a number of equipment in this kind of thing. [00:13:25] RB: It's beginning to come through now, the particular advantage of this single unit capacitor you're talking about now. [00:13:31] LM: Yeah, you could always know at any point in time where you are mass-wise inside both tanks. I think it was a real…We felt real good about the system at that particular time. We still do. [00:13:49] RB: Is this ultimately tied into the instrument unit up there? [00:13:53] LM: No, no. The instrument unit provides all the guidance for all the stages below us. The instrument unit sits on top of the S-IVB and guides the S-IVB, S-II, and the S-IC. Now the only correlation that you have between the propellant utilization system is that the IU system will generate cutoff for the main engine—it'll just stop the main engine. It's not as a direct function that we're feeding them information, okay? We'll feed all our information to the ground. Now the ground has…They can issue commands from the ground—program commands—that they can shut off the engine through the IU. and/or the IU can be programmed for what we call velocity cutoff. At a certain point in the flight program, the IU could send a command based on time and shut us off. The PU itself is not closed loop with the IU. The propellant utilization system is only closed loop inside the S-IVB stage. That's the way the concept started out on the S-IV program. [00:15:14] RB: Was this a…Now can you tell me again what the Thor was in terms of propelling utilization? Did you have any kind of similar…? [00:15:21] LM: No, the Thor doesn't have a continuous probe. [00:15:24] RB: Didn't have it at all, no. [00:15:26] LM: The S-IVB I believe was the first time we used the, the S-IV program was the first usage of the continuous probe. Now there are some programs that have used what they call a short probe where concept-wise you've used either mass sensors… [tape ends] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000026_A Title A name given to the resource Morata, Lorenzo (Part 1) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. Description An account of the resource Lorenzo Morata’s interview describes his early work on the Saturn program and his role in developing the S-IVB stage’s propellant utilization system. After joining Douglas Aircraft Company in 1960, Morata transferred from the Delta program to Saturn, where he became involved in designing the electronics for a closed-loop system that optimized the mixture ratio of liquid oxygen (LOX) and liquid hydrogen (LH2) by continuously monitoring propellant levels and regulating engine flow. He explains that the system used long continuous capacitive probes inside the LOX and hydrogen tanks to measure propellant mass, providing real-time data that allowed the vehicle to consume nearly all available fuel and oxidizer while maximizing payload capacity. Morata details his work designing the inverter/converter, a power supply unit that converted battery power into the various AC and DC voltages needed to operate the propellant utilization electronics, and describes his involvement throughout the design, qualification, testing, and integration process. He notes that the S-IV/S-IVB continuous probe system represented a major advancement over earlier approaches, such as discrete level sensors, because it provided continuous measurements without the added complexity of multiple sensors and wiring. Morata also discusses how the system transmitted information to ground computers while remaining separate from the Instrument Unit’s guidance system, though engine cutoff commands could ultimately be coordinated through the vehicle’s control systems. Overall, the interview highlights the innovative electrical and instrumentation technologies developed for Saturn and the importance of precise propellant management in achieving Apollo mission performance goals.