18 10 544 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/4ef888f809f42c13b3d656d5c966d5ee.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/5105b901e088fe932dc05876c73da46c.mp4 fa422da4aaf5cb8937381112412ec68d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000015_A Title A name given to the resource Felix, Harold E. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/99fb4a55394110a9f41cd81ff6a1c499.pdf 67124a709692c518bf2d8e51a2589103 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000015_T Title A name given to the resource Felix, Harold E. (Transcript) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/534709be3c587b491b30ffd8aa38d15b.jpg ed48955f90bbf92640c11dc0ce957e83 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/1f5b14e8f8d732fc2d7afe2ffd7eb7f5.mp4 a64f6d2859af0f191353ef51153911a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Anthony Young Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fendell, Ed Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Young, Anthony Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:53:46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context spc_youn_000021 Title A name given to the resource Fendell, Ed Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-12-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/0369808cd6f5470ca2310a93f5107511.jpg 4598197eb9b09fa4ae86fb6882190ee7 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/707264cf2969767db11aa518a018da6f.mp4 2174df35ea079646d9a2595db5eba627 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saturn V Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ferrell, Toon Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bilstein, Roger E. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:29:28 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Ferrell and Tom Lewis [00:00:10] Roger Bilstein: Interview with Mr. Toon Ferrell on the F-1 engine. I wanted to start out, you could tell me your background with the engine program and when you came to Marshall and that type stuff. [00:00:22] Toon Ferrell: I came here in July 1963 and worked on the J-2 engine exclusively up until about two years ago where I had the responsibility of the three engines: F-1, J-2, and H-1. [00:00:42] RB: Right. There's a specific question about the F-1 I wanted to ask before we get on too far enough. In the thrust chamber extension skirt, are there two pyrotechnic igniters in there that ignite those fuel rich gases coming out of the GG? [00:00:58] TF: Let me get an F-1 man in here. [00:01:00] RB: Oh, okay. [laughs] [tape stops and restarts] [00:01:02] RB: What's your name again? [00:01:03] Tom Lewis: Tom Lewis. [00:01:04] RB: Tom Lewis, okay. I was curious about the thrust chamber extension skirt on the F-1. Are there two pyrotechnic igniters in there that ignite the fuel rich GG exhaust as it comes through there? I came across that in one of the Saturn V news reference. I'm having trouble running that down. [00:01:30] TL: You got a... [00:01:31] TF: Sure it is. [00:01:32] TL: I do too. But you know, [they made some modifications?]. Let me get…When you say pyrotechnic, [inaudible], yeah, I'm sure there’s an igniter. [00:01:40] RB: Okay, maybe it's just a variation of the ASI on the J-2 then. Something like that. But there are igniters of some kind… [00:01:48] TL: I think there is an igniter unless they have... [00:01:50] TF: And they would be continuous. Pyrotechnic would just be a one-shot operation. [00:01:53] RB: Right, okay. That helps explain my confusion then. [00:01:56] TL: Where is that? [00:01:57] TF: I don't know. Wait a minute. Does that say [eight]? Right here. Is that in the...skirt? Extension skirt? Okay. Igniter type TYP. That helps a lot. [00:02:12] TL: Typical. [00:02:14] TF: Which would be just a spark plug type. [00:02:17] RB: But it's a continuous igniter kind of thing? Okay, there are some other things I'm curious about. When we were out at Rocketdyne, I went out and talked to Fuller and Bob Fontaine and Attinello and several of these people, even McNamara. [00:02:33] TF: Oh? [00:02:34] RB: [laughs] Yeah, oh gee, we got right in there. [00:02:36] TF: That was down at [inaudible]? [00:02:38] RB: Yeah, yeah, we went down to see him down there. There are a few people, of course, that have changed around. But I was trying to establish some historical baselines for the brazing furnace technique. Now, were brazing furnaces in use before they started that big F-1 operation? Or did they have to braze, say, the H-1 and J-2 engines by hand? Or do you know anything about those operations? [00:03:02] TF: The H-1 was hand brazed up to a point, then they went to the furnace brazed. [00:03:13] RB: Was that at Neosho? [00:03:15] TF: It was started at Canoga Park, moved to Neosho, and ended there. [00:03:20] RB: Then they brought it back to Canoga Park? [00:03:22] TF: I’m not sure if they [brought?] the furnace back or not. They completed the production of the H-1 at Neosho. Now, where the tooling is now, I don't know. I'm sure it's not at Neosho. It may be in scrap. [00:03:32] RB: I've got a hunch that's completely closed down now. [00:03:34] TF: Yes, it’s no longer in operation. Neosho has been out of business a couple of years. [00:03:40] RB: Were furnace brazing operations used for other engines, like the RL-10, very early on, and the S-IIIV? Or was the F-1 the first to use that kind of stuff? [00:03:48] TF: I can't answer that. But let's see who can give him an answer. Gene [Cotalvo?]. Pick up the phone and get [him?]. [00:04:00] RB: Listen, I can call him. I was wondering if you could make some comments about the phasing out of static-firing tests as you got into flight tests on various vehicles. How useful were the static tests as you went into the flight tests, should they have been phased out earlier do you think? Or what’s your reaction to that? [00:04:21] TF: You're speaking of static testing the stage? [00:04:24] RB: Yeah. Static testing the stage then, yeah. [00:04:30] TF: Well, that's political. [00:04:33] TL: You can get all kinds of arguments. It’s all in who you ask. [00:04:36] TF: You won't get a decent answer to that question. You'll get an answer every time you try, but it won't be the same one. [00:04:43] TL: It'll be the individual's personal opinion that you're talking to at the time. [00:04:47] RB: Okay, that kind of answers my question then. [00:04:50] TF: We static-fired all of the S-IIs. We quit at number ten on the S-IVB. I don't know the rationale behind that, unless it's single engine versus multiple cluster. [00:05:07] TL: The one problem that you have when a lot of your first stage is a lot of those engines have been in storage for a good length of time before they're ready to be launched. So there's always that question—should we or shouldn't we? Because they've been in storage for maybe something in four or five years. [00:05:29] RB: I remember reading not too long ago in the Marshall Star, they pulled out an H-1 and an F-1 one about a year apart, and it seemed to work okay. There were no problems so… [00:05:38] TF: There has never been an engine requirement to static-fire a stage. It's done strictly…See, we static-fire the engine on its acceptance test at the plant. We make three runs on it. Always, always, three minimum. [00:05:57] TL: Well, on the F-1, it could be two. [00:05:59] TF: I'm talking J-2, the difference for engines. [00:06:02] TL: On the F-1, it could be two, but we didn't have very many because we had to go in and re-orifice. [00:06:09] TF: At that time, we were completely engine-oriented–of course, we still are—we never had a requirement to static-fire an engine on the stage to prove that the engine could work. It's to prove that it was connected properly, if all the plumbing to it from the stage, and the stage systems. The stage systems never get exercised until in flight. [00:06:27] RB: Until it goes, yeah. [00:06:29] TF: But the engine enjoys a little bit better reliability testing. You can static-fire it as many times as you want to, and it still can fly. [00:06:38] RB: That brings up an interesting question about 501. How were you feeling—the engine people—when that thing went up, and it was the first all-out flight, and you hadn't gone through the sequential flight test, knowing the engines and so on before? [00:06:51] TF: You always have concerns. I still have concerns. But 501 was the first restart test. There was always a little apprehension about your ability to restart an engine. I'm speaking J-2. [00:07:17] RB: J-2, yeah, and S-IVB stage. [00:07:19] TF: Yeah. Now, it went fine. Of course, the next one didn’t. [00:07:25] RB: Do you remember much about that ASI failure? Can you tell me a little bit about that? [00:07:28] TF: I'm not sure. I can give you a report on it. In depth if you... [00:07:38] RB: I think the historical office probably has those, yeah. [00:07:43] TF: Well, we had two engines that had ASI failures. There was an S-IVB, we knew about it when it would not restart. We had…The stage had the…Whenever an engine shuts down, a certain time interval there after the pre-valve closed. You know, the pre-valve separates the propellant from the engine. We wouldn't have known that we had an S-II failure had it not been wired wrong, and the signal—this time delay signal to close its own pre-valve—went to another engine. Then the temperature gradient, we knew we had similar type failures. The failure was caused by…We had a flexible [hose?] within a braid. All the testing that had been done had been done at sea level. At sea level, your hydrogen forms liquid air, and the liquid air in this tube dampened the flow vibration. At altitude, you don't have liquid air. For that reason, it failed. [00:09:11] RB: Yeah. They finally had to set up some sort of test cell to purge the whole atmosphere to get that vacuum. [00:09:17] TF: Well, the moment we started vacuum testing the flex lines, they started going within seconds. I don't know how much further you want to go into this. [00:09:28] RB: Well, how come they didn't try the vacuum test before on that line? [00:09:31] TF: Because nobody thought about it. I mean, you don't think that a vacuum can have anything to do with an inanimate body. Nobody realized or ever thought that the liquid air in the line was dampening. We didn't even know it had flow vibrations. We didn't know that it was dampening. It was a junior engineer that walks up and says, “You aren't testing that line like it sees at altitude.” If they hadn't been desperate, they'd have told him, “Go on!” He was alone. But then they decided, well, it may be something good. [00:10:05] RB: You remember that guy's name by any chance? [00:10:07] TF No. I would request you didn't incorporate this in the history. [00:10:08] TL: They probably fired him. [00:10:14] RB: You would? Okay. [00:10:17] TF: Because it may reflect on Rocketdyne senior engineering. That's the only reason. It's a nice story, but…. [00:10:25] RB: What about…Would you mind if I just put it in there not for attribution or a privileged source? [00:10:30] TF: I prefer you wouldn't use it. [00:10:32] RB: Okay, we'll just leave it out then. Let's see, I’ve got some more items here. I'm a little bit vague on how engines were uprated. I know they went up on the H-1 in particular. [00:10:46] TF: And the J-2. [00:10:47] RB: And the J-2, yeah. I heard one story about the J-2 that it was always more or less a 230k engine. [00:10:56] TF: Well, the way people talk about engines, they should…It's either a 200K engine or a 205K engine or it's a 225 and a 230. You'll hear people say a 200K engine and a 230K engine, which gives you a 30K differential as opposed to five. The engine at first was calibrated at the 5.0 mixture ratio, which is nominal, which is 200K. That engine, that 200K engine, if you went to the 5.5 mixture ratio, would give you roughly 225K. [00:11:45] RB: All right. [00:11:46] TF: Now, then when we went to the 230K engine, we calibrated at 5.5 rather than 5.0. So that's how the…But you should always compare the thrust ratings at the same mixture ratio level, and not take one at one end and one at the other end and then compare them. [00:12:06] RB: All right. That helps clear that up a little bit too then. And you get a better specific impulse out of it. [00:12:15] TF: You get a better specific impulse at nominal than you do at 5.5, where you're getting more thrust. Thrust and specific impulse are indirectly proportional. [00:12:28] RB: What about the uprating the H-1? I don't know. Do you know how they went into that? But the F-1 was never uprated. [00:12:42] TL: Well, 1522. But you call 22K out of...Out of 1.5 million an uprating? [00:12:50] TF: Out of 1.5 million. No. [00:12:51] RB: What did they do to get that extra twenty-two? [00:12:54] TL: Well, they didn't really get an extra twenty-two. Whenever the engine was designed for 1.5 million, you've got all kinds of pad in there. You can take an engine and set it up for 1.5 million pounds of thrust, what you think was 1.5 million, then they come in 1,575,000. [00:13:13] RB: Right. [00:13:16] TL: All they did to get the 1522 was orifice the engine so it would come in a nominal 1522 because that's what the stage needed. [00:13:26] RB: So they just changed the orifices? [00:13:27] TL: Yeah. [00:13:28] RB: Okay. [00:13:29] TL: There was no design… [00:13:30] TF: In the gas generated, you change your orifice, you can vary the thrust considerably. [00:13:34] TL: For example, on the F-1 in the early parts, the early engines, they had a GG injector that the lower flow rate was marginal on stability. So they had a requirement that the total flow for the GG had to be 170 pounds a second. That was the first thing they looked for. Make sure you have 170 pounds a second. If you got below that, then you got into this marginal area of GG stability. Now, later on in the program, they went to a modified GG injector, the X4. Then they no longer had this 170 pound per second flow rate requirement because the X4 injector inherently was more stable. But 1522 just came about because that was a nice number that the stage needed. If you had five engines with 1522 average thrust, that met the requirements. I would say if they needed 1550, they could have given them 1550. [00:14:43] RB: Okay, but when you start to uprate them, you start with the gas generator first or you start or start orificing [sic] injector face? Or the combination? [00:14:54] TL: Just the GG. You wouldn’t do anything to the injector. [00:14:55] TF: The gas generator determines the power that your propellant pumps is the one you [get?]. The higher flow… [00:15:00] TL: The higher flow, the faster your pump turns. [00:15:07] RB: As long as we're on the F-1 here a little bit, do you remember anything about the origins of that fifth engine on the Saturn V? There were some early design studies for only the four engine vehicles, so the question came, what are they going to do with the empty space? Did you hear anything about that? [00:15:27] TL: Maybe stage people. [00:15:28] RB: Yeah. [00:15:29] TF: I imagine they needed a thrust for payload. [00:15:33] RB: As I recall partly the thrust, and also as long as that [base?] is there, let’s put something in there to improve the base heating. [00:15:40] TF: [The flow characteristics and so on?] That was before my time. [00:15:45] RB: Do you remember anything about the Pogo problem on the F-1? Excuse me, I mean combustion instability ran into about ‘62. Were you involved in any of that? [00:15:57] TL: No. Unfortunately, about ‘62…That was the time that I was in Houston. The only real problem they had on the engine while I was working on it was they lost the LOX pumps. This was only on the test stand. They never had a failure on an engine—you know, a stage. But we found out that the LOX pump, they were—because of the problem—they were getting bubbles in the lines. Because the lines weren't insulated well enough. They didn't have any high point leads to lead these gases out. [00:16:46] RB: Is this Edwards? [00:16:48] TL: They lost some at Edwards, and they lost some at…What did they call that area down in Canoga where the green [inaudible]? CTL? [00:16:55] TF: The [combo test lab?]. When you ask questions that we can't answer, I can give you names of people who can answer, such as a combustion instability on the F-1. [00:17:07] RB: I've talked to him already—Jerry Thomson. Yeah, I’ve talked to him already. I've also talked to Bob Pease too on the J-2. And what’s his name? Dick Rodgers? I've talked to him too. So we've got a lot of that access pretty well covered. In some of the material that we've been reading lots of times, the author begins with a statement something to the effect that the engine is the longest lead time article as they’ll start an engine without any particular idea for it. [00:17:39] TF: Without an application. [00:17:41] RB: Without an application. Exactly. Could you go into that a little bit for me? Why…The matrix of this thing? [00:17:48] TF: I guess that we knew what kind of engine we wanted, roughly the thrust ring, but the stage wasn't designed yet. I guess the...I don't know. I'm talking before my time. For instance, right now, the shuttle engine contract was [led?] a year ago, and the stage hasn't been [led?] yet. [00:18:18] RB: Yeah, that’s right. [00:18:19] TL: An engine inherently is a long lead item. [00:18:22] TF: It's harder to develop than a stage. [00:18:25] TL: See a stage is...You know, if you're talking to stage people, they won't agree. But if you compare an engine to a stage, a stage is basically non-movable items: tanks, piping, valves, plumbing, wiring, that kind of stuff. Whereas in all your engines you've got rotating machinery, and that's always a source of the problem. Plus, you've got your combustion stability problem, which is always a problem. [00:18:52] TF: It's true in aircraft. Jet engines. [00:18:56] RB: Okay, that brings me up to another thing here. I had a note I picked up somewhere about turbine blades made by Haynes Stellite. I've forgotten now, according to the note, there was a problem with them or whether they were evolved out of some military program. Does that ring a bell with you, the Haynes Stellite turbine blades? [00:19:16] TF: Yes, they were manufacturing blades, and they got some batches made of wrong material. [00:19:22] RB: That's the one. That was on the F-1, was it? [00:19:25] TF: H-1. [00:19:26] RB: H-1, yeah. And there was a big flap then about quality control with the vendors and sub-vendors. [00:19:33] TF: Yeah, I was trying to think if we had a failure. I guess we did. [00:19:37] RB: Maybe some cranks. [00:19:38] TL: We had some turbine failures on the H-1. [00:19:42] TF: Turbine failures and then when they started investigating the material, they found it to be improper. [00:19:46] RB: Oh, now I remember what my question was on this. That same stuff they were using on some military…Didn't the Atlas have similar engines with Haynes Stellite blades? Do you know what happened with those? Did they have to go back and refit the Atlas? This is back in ‘66. [00:20:05] TF: I don't know if Atlas was involved or not. TP will know. TP Smith or Jim Sloan, as soon as he gets back. [00:20:14] RB: Now I remember why I asked that because I remember they're talking about going back and retrofitting the H-1s. It occurred to me I wonder if they had to do the same thing to some of the military engines as well. [00:20:24] TF: I'm sure that…On cases like this, we put out what we call an alert to all space and aircraft industry: “Here is a situation that happened to us. Be aware that this is a situation.” [00:20:38] TL: “Check your own housekeeping and see if you've got any of these.” [00:20:41] TF: And DOD, they do the same to us. If they find some fluke, we put out an alert on this flex hose. [00:20:49] RB: The ASI thing? [00:20:50] TF: Yeah. Because this was beyond the state of the art thinking, and it bit us so you don't want your other government agencies to be bitten nor industry. [00:21:02] RB: There's a lot of these questions I admit are kind of picky but we're getting towards the end of this thing. There’s lots of things coming up. We're trying to chase them down a little bit. At the beginning of the S-IV stage, they're talking about Pratt & Whitney engines. I'm really sorry I can't remember the sequence. I think they were going to use what was known as the RL-115, and they ran into problems and went to the RL-119. Do you remember anything about that, what the difficulties were? [00:21:32] TF: I didn't even know there was a 115 and 119. [00:21:36] RB: But it finally came out the RL-10A3. [00:21:40] TL: The 119, I thought that was their…High PC engine. [00:21:443] TF: Their competitive engine? I did too. I thought he was talking about... [00:21:48] TL: XL-119. [00:21:50] RB: Yeah, maybe that was it. [00:21:52] TF: The competitive engine with the shuttle. [00:21:54] TL: Those are high PC engines. [00:21:56] RB: No, it would be a different one because this was back in the early ‘60s when they were talking about the S-IV stage [before I came to the project?]. [00:22:02] TL: The original engine was the RL-10. I worked on that for four years. [00:22:06] RB: The RL-10 at Pratt & Whitney? How would you compare it? While you worked on the F-1, I was going to ask you how would you compare it to, say, the J-2 as an engine system? [00:22:17] TL: It's kind of hard to compare. You're talking about 200k versus 15k. [00:22:20] RB: [laughs] Yeah. [00:22:22] TL: It's kind of like comparing apples and oranges. Of course, I don't know. I haven't worked on the J-2 that much. Basically they're the same engines except one's bigger, right, Toon? [00:22:32] RB: There's a bootstrap cycle on the RL-10 that makes it a lot different. [00:22:37] TF: Well, there's a bootstrap cycle on the J-2. Maybe not the same bootstrap. [00:22:40] RB: Yeah, it's a different arrangement somehow. [00:22:44] TF: I don't want to think about the RL-10. [00:22:48] TL: The RL-10 has…The later versions have some [inaudible] where you can throttle any percent of full rated thrust you want essentially. [00:23:00] TF: Did it have an EC8? Or was it a pressure ladder? [00:23:04] TL: Pressure ladder, I think. [00:23:06] TF: I would say—well, hell, I'm talking without knowledge—but I'd say that the J-2 is more complicated. I think the RL-10 would be a simpler engine. [00:23:16] TL: [Well, you can look at it?] [00:23:18] TF: Look at that beast over there. With all the plumbing on it. [00:23:22] TL: RL-10 only weighed something like 300 pounds. [00:23:24] RB: The J-2 was going into a restart capability. [00:23:26] TF: Yes, this has a restart capability, which really complicates it. [00:23:30] RB: And it's a higher altitude? A 100 nautical mile altitude or something like that. [00:23:36] TF: Well, it starts at 200 miles up. It has to start at altitude. I don't know if the RL-10 started at altitude ever. [00:23:44] RB: No, I don't think it ever restarted. [00:23:46] TF: This? [00:23:48] TL: It was an altitude engine. [00:23:50] RB: To begin with, yeah. [00:23:50] TF: You mean it would start at altitude? [00:23:51] TL: Yes. It was an upper stage engine. Their acceptance testing was in the vacuum. [00:24:00] TF: I'm not familiar with that. [00:24:02] TL: That was one of the big problems they had. They did all their development testing kind of at sea level. Well, not really. They had a steam injector—you know, diffuser—but they ran them all at horizontal, and they ran them in single positions. Then the first time they ran two engines simultaneously in a vertical position, that's when they ran into their first major problem. [00:24:24] RB: Caved in the thrust chambers? [00:24:26] TL: One engine lit, and the other one didn't. They dumped all that LOX in there, and then it lit. There was pieces flying in every direction as far as you could see. [00:24:39] RB: You were down there working on it this time. Is that right? Could you explain that again for me? What the difference was between the horizontal and vertical testing? What the problems were? [00:24:50] TL: I don't really know what the problem was. All I know about that problem is that all the development engines up until that point had been done in a horizontal position. [00:25:04] TF: But only single? [00:25:06] TL: Single engine only. Then they ran in a vertical position, which was a two injector type thing. [00:25:14] RB: It would have been Centaur. [00:25:16] TL: The first test that they ran in that attitude was [changing?], one engine lit. The second engine did not light. [00:25:26] TF: And it continued to dump its propellants. [00:25:28] TL: It still got [its bootstrap, see?], and it's dumping its propellants right down into the injector. The discharge got lighted [sic] from the other engine that was burning, then it caused a problem. [00:25:44] TF: You don't know that horizontal versus vertical had anything to do with it? [00:25:48] TL: No. Right off hand, the only reason I'd say it made any difference is that, you know, I just had a…The igniter was just a spark plug up in the injector. Now, you know when you start feeding this thing in a vertical position do you get this injection so good beyond the ignition point? [00:26:14] RB: As I recall now, I think that Jerry Thomson and I talked about this, and he got into it for some reason in more detail. I think I got that. He made some comment about this. There's another thing though that I'm a little bit vague about is that there are all these test facilities—at Canoga Park, Edwards, and so on—and yet there were parallel testing going on here at Marshall. To a layman it just looked like too much redundancy. Yet there was a strong feeling obviously that was necessary. Could you go and talk about that a little bit? The rationale for it and what you learned particularly here at Marshall and how it fed back into the contractor. [00:26:58] TF: I had rather let someone else answer that question. [00:27:04] TL: Well, for one thing—it's not going to answer your question, but it will answer part of your question— is Rocketdyne doesn't have any facilities for cluster testing. [00:27:18] RB: They're all single engine stands out there, and Edwards had the cluster test stand? [00:27:24] TL: No, Marshall had cluster testing. [00:27:26] RB: Oh, okay. I’d forgotten that. All right. And then they did it at MTF? Yeah, okay. [00:27:34] TL: You see, Rocketdyne doesn't have any facilities for cluster testing. [00:27:38] RB: Well, they began F-1 testing as I recall my note here. They began single engine F-1 tests here at Marshall ahead of Rocketdyne. [00:27:54] TF: There's always been a tendency for Marshall to do a lot in house. They have been losing this over the years, and it's contracted out. You aren’t the first one that’s asked that question. [00:28:18] TL: [Inaudible] closer to home. [all laugh] [00:28:24] RB: Okay, I was wondering if you could make some comments going back to some of the early design studies and so on. The reasons for using, say, liquid engines over solid propulsion engines. It facilitated gimbaling, start and shut down sequences, engine out arrangements, better adapted for manned flight ratings, or whether its specific impulse started—at least the one that existed, say, seven or eight years ago. [00:28:56] TL: You can get all kinds of arguments on liquid versus solid. [00:29:00] TF: That's another question. [00:29:02] TL: That’s another one of those questions. Of course, it does facilitate gimbaling. It's very hard to gimbal a solid engine. [00:29:08] TF: You have [reaction control?]. [00:29:10] TL: Which is tough, yeah. It's much more complicated. Manned rating, I would think, Toon, would probably be one of the big factors because you can fire a liquid engine, essentially as many times as you want to to make sure… [tape ends] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ohc_stnv_000016_A Title A name given to the resource Ferrell, Toon and Lewis, Tom Description An account of the resource End of this interview is included in the Leland Belew interview. In this oral history interview, Marshall Space Flight Center engineers Toon Ferrell and Tom Lewis discuss the development, testing, and operational history of the Saturn rocket engines—particularly the F-1, J-2, and H-1—drawing on their experiences overseeing engine programs during the Apollo era. They explain technical topics including engine ignition systems, furnace brazing techniques, thrust uprating through gas-generator orifice changes, acceptance and static-fire testing, and the challenges of engine reliability, restart capability, and combustion stability. The interview also examines significant engineering issues such as the J-2 augmented spark igniter (ASI) failure caused by unrecognized vacuum-induced flex-line vibrations, quality control problems with H-1 turbine blade materials, and the rationale for extensive engine and stage testing at Rocketdyne and Marshall. Throughout the discussion, Ferrell and Lewis emphasize the complexity of liquid-fueled rocket engine development, the importance of rigorous testing and systems integration, and the often subjective or politically influenced decisions surrounding testing strategies, while also reflecting on how lessons learned from failures were shared across NASA, the Department of Defense, and industry to improve reliability and advance rocket propulsion technology. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/ce3eb3bc16c56845d4feba57b1f18958.png b1eb98879b78c10c0988ac3a8d5d274b https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/9a58f4ec5c9ccd958026b94a7f5fa5cf.mp4 fe5cf74f67dd0bea1ef703db9c26880d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aerospace History Interviews: I Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kurtz, Fletcher Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lundquist, Charles Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:37:17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Fletcher Kurtz (Space History Interviews).mp4 Title A name given to the resource Fletcher Kurtz Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-08-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Video Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/de6d9619d3411004a2170ad5cfc75bf4.jpg 2ac136667df5f7693ae8f5fea227bc45 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/ba799a91baf454829c7ca073671a471e.mp4 30e42e473acb20cfd3ff6fdf849c7803 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bob Ward Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Foster, Jay Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ward, Bob Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:56:51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context spc_ward_000015 Title A name given to the resource Foster, Jay Description An account of the resource Conversation between Bob Ward and Jay Foster on interaction with Wernher von Braun. Foster relates a number of stories touching on von Braun's love of flying and professional associations, among others. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-09-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Audio Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/9ccec1444961851165c07d22fe2df517.pdf 57b3ee692a420e1600b7c713e841ce9f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bob Ward Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Foster, Jay Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ward, Bob Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20 Pages Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context spc_ward_000015T Title A name given to the resource Foster, Jay (Transcript) Description An account of the resource Transcript with notes on a Conversation between Bob Ward and Jay Foster on interaction with Wernher von Braun. Foster relates a number of stories touching on von Braun's love of flying and professional associations, among others. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-09-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/f3ed52f9891f641bb3605806dbcf04d9.png d267298073441c974cc327e0de8e2250 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/8bf450261cbaf8b5b95d4b0d857dd5ed.mp4 459aa0bb62aeb6a7a408e4baf94004cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aerospace History Interviews: I Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Williams, Francis Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lundquist, Charles Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:00:38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Francis Williams (Space History Interviews).mp4 Title A name given to the resource Francis Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-07-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Video Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/b8bd733df733fb37d5e01ee16f164acd.png 0f43886255b3d1450e00ff8a5ba5fe73 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/35ac14b3a34c73337533f93375c38b7b.mp4 38e7385564393b43bd013b2dc9a54e3c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource UAH History Collection Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cook, Lee Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Franz, Frank Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:06:37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Frank Franz Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Language A language of the resource EN Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Oral History Collection University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-7-11 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Video Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Franz Combined https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/9dce50266cbd0d8ba18af54448731cec.png d52cd5179fc549b581a6d9381d0b0d31 https://oralhistory.uah.edu/files/original/1213d8a0f423109898397bab129fc54d.mp4 c4dccfdd4d5aa1ed1aee5959ed91c5c0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aerospace History Interviews: I Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wajalik, Fred Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lundquist, Charles Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0:56:05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Fred Wajalik (Space History Interviews).mp4 Title A name given to the resource Fred Wajalik Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-04-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .MP4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Interviews Video Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama Language A language of the resource en Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections.