Sieber, Werner
Dublin Core
Title
Sieber, Werner
Description
Early German rocketry in mid-1930s, especially wind tunnel research. Role of technical universities in such research on V-2 Rocket systems. Life in days leading up to and after the end of WWII. Coming to America through Operation Paperclip.
Source
University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections, Huntsville, Alabama
Date
July 22, 1971
Rights
This material may be protected under U. S. Copyright Law (Title 17, U.S. Code) which governs the making of photocopies or reproductions of copyrighted materials. You may use the digitized material for private study, scholarship, or research. Though the University of Alabama in Huntsville Archives and Special Collections has physical ownership of the material in its collections, in some cases we may not own the copyright to the material. It is the patron's obligation to determine and satisfy copyright restrictions when publishing or otherwise distributing materials found in our collections.
Format
.MP4
Language
en
Type
Interviews
Audio
Identifier
ohc_crst_000024_A
Oral History Item Type Metadata
Interviewer
Christensen, David
Interviewee
Sieber, Werner
Transcription
[00:00:05] Werner Sieber: So, my name is Werner Sieber. Today is the 22nd of July, 1971. I'm talking to Mr. Christensen and Ms. Heimburg.
[00:00:20] David Christensen: And you would tell a little bit about how you got involved with Peenemünde starting in ‘36.
[00:00:27] WS: That means starting in 1936 again. That means being an assistant, a scientific or engineering assistant in the Institute for Technical Physics or Applied Physics at the University of – Technical University of Hanover. I got involved for the first time, I did hear about the Peenemünde project for the first time about ‘36, ‘37. And Dr. von Braun and Dr. Thiel were having a discussion with Professor Hase, who was the boss of the Institute. I'm not quite sure if this was the first time that Dr. von Braun had discussions with Professor Hase. But at that time, I accidentally became witness of it since I was running a special experiment in the large room of Professor Hase’s. And when Dr. von Braun came, I was asked to sit on the table and participate in the discussion. And from this developed at first a cooperative type of work with Kummersdorf at that time. We had to develop flame temperature measuring instrument based on the line reversal method. And it was supposed to be an automated one, since it was supposed to sit close to the rocket engine and to measure the temperature. And from there more involvement, especially later when the project moved to Peenemünde resulted. The Institute was about 50% engaged with their work to work together with Peenemünde when the war arrived.
[00:02:30] WS: I personally was still at the Institute at that time to finish my thesis, my PhD thesis. And actually, I made my PhD before the war started in ‘39 and had a contract with Zeiss Jena. But when the war arrived, I was civilian type drafted together with several of the Institute to work for the Peenemünde project. So being drafted as a civilian for the Peenemünde project, I had from there a massive contact with Peenemünde. I did live in Hanover and did mainly work in the Applied Physics Institute to develop instrumentation. But I had to do many TDY trips up to Peenemünde, normally staying for several weeks there, trying out the instrumentation and coming back and improving it. My personal contact essentially was during the first two years with the wind tunnel and Dr. Herrmann and Mr. Ramm of the wind tunnel at that time. But I had to develop was the temperature measuring method for the wind tunnel and we choose to use the Schlieren method and having upstreams of the wind tunnel arc which would create a shock wave. And this shock wave going through the field of view of the Schlieren apparatus would be illuminated from the Schlieren apparatus with two other arcs, the time difference between was known, the distance on the picture was known, so this way the velocity and out of the velocity the temperature was derived. Now this one was only one of 40 different research contracts which the Institute of Applied Physics in Hanover under Professor Hase had to accomplish for Peenemünde. The arrangement was very similar, in a way actually, as nowadays the government is contracting with universities. I, in the meantime, became chief engineer of the Institute and as such had contact then also with the other research contracts and personally also was not only supervising but working on some of them throughout the next few years. And they were not so much for the wind tunnel anymore but actually for the test division, if I may call it this way. I don't recall the proper name under Dr. Schilling at that time. Mr. Heimburg was part of it and my main contact in the test division was the instrument development lab under Mr. Albert Schuler.
[00:05:51] DC: He was directing with Peenemünde and you were working closely with Schuler.
[00:05:55] WS: Schuler was in charge of the instrument development lab. He was developing instrumentation up at Peenemünde but most of it contracting it out to university institutes. They were in Dresden [or Traisen?], in Darmstadt and in Hanover. They were the three main ones I recall at that time. And our main contact with Schuler was to develop level gauges for liquid oxygen and for alcohol. And those ones mass producing also for all the first charts and all the first V-2's had our level gauges in it.
[00:06:43] DC: Did they become flight hardware?
[00:06:45] WS: So, they became flight hardware, and we had to come up with a certain production of it involving local industry in Hanover. And developing it, manufacturing it, checking it out and then taking care of all the mishaps which normally will come about. It was one of the works which I had to do for 20 years, ‘41, ‘42, ‘43 and so on.
[00:07:17] DC: So, in other words the university was the prime contractor, and you had to go out and sub out the hardware and all these other items?
[00:07:25] WS: That's right.
[00:07:26] DC: It was a little bit of a unique situation. I guess you don't really have that in this country, do you?
[00:07:32] WS: I do not really know how the contracting part was done right now if you ask me. I was essentially behind the quality control to get the materials together, seeing that this part is done for the check out and so on. The contracting could have been done — I do not know. Professor Hase actually had a unique position. He was professor and director of the Institute for Applied Physics but at the same time he also had a private company, the so-called Pyro-Werk where he developed temperature and radiation sensing instrumentation.
[00:08:19] DC: [He got to wear two hats now?].
[00:08:21] WS: [Two hats?] and also part of the contracts or the contacts with Peenemünde were with the Pyro-Werk and part of it was the Institute. Both being together so we did do some of the research, which then was manufactured through the Pyro-Werk. So, the Pyro-Werk, the small one, let’s say 50 to 100 men per year but a very specialized instrumentation company. And Dr. [Schitting?] who I had later made contact in the fundamental which he became the boss of the test division so to speak. That means he was deputy director of this Pyro-Werk right at the start of the war. That means the deputy to Professor Hase, at the company. Whereas I was the counterpart at the Institute and was called over engineer at that time. So that is how we worked together.
[00:09:22] DC: Would you talk a little bit about some of the problems at the end of the war, materials, quality control. I am sure things deteriorated there. Did you keep production going pretty well on these instruments?
[00:09:34] WS: No, we surely had problems. The longer the war lasted, the more difficult it became to get the proper materials for our instruments. Especially the level gauges having them manufactured and competing with other contracts those companies had.
[00:09:54] DC: Who had the priority in other words?
[00:09:55] WS: So, the priority deal and continuously our priority either did go down and then there was another one, I forgot all the code names, but whenever the new priority for Peenemünde or if they had a good shot and it looked like it was a good deal then we got a good priority and also could get something.
[00:10:16] DC: It would shift occasionally. The priorities would shift.
[00:10:18] WS: Through the so called Rüstungskommando, that means the local military installation who was governing what the companies whom they were working for and watching the priorities for.
[00:10:32] DC: The military government was overseeing all these different things.
[00:10:35] WS: It was a military production type agency in Hanover for…
[00:10:42] DC: For that area.
[00:10:43] WS: For the area. So, we had to work for them and getting the men on our service for the instruments. Now out of the 40 research contracts which we were doing some of them were for the warheads. One of them was for example developing a special ‘feeler’ which was the very front of the V-2 would be the one touching ground first and exploding at the back. So that was something half a meter long and an electrical device. And this one surely had to be developed in a way that it would not explode the warhead already while getting warm during the heating period during reentry.
[00:11:38] DC: Was it ever developed and used?
[00:11:43] WS: It was used. It was then mass produced since it was a quartz type tubing deal with electrical contact was produced by the OSRAM in Berlin.
[00:12:01] DC: And your group developed it?
[00:12:03] WS: It was developed and all the heating type of experiments if they would withstand the heat of what we essentially did is, we were dipping this [worry?] and it was called the Elefantenrüssel part. The nose part of an… the trunk of an elephant. It was the sensitive part which was in front of it. I personally was involved in it. We were dipping it in hot melting metal which would have the proper heat transfer like it would see during reentry. Simulating this type of – and seeing that it would not ignite it but only after it is down there. But on the other side keeping it mass-wise and as light so that most of it could be warhead.
[00:13:02] DC: Did you ever consider putting a timer that would only activate the warhead after a certain point in the trajectory?
[00:13:10] WS: I did. This one was…
[00:13:12] DC: That way too.
[00:13:13] WS: – that way too. But I do not recall right now when it was made active. But anyhow it was the main heating part during which time it was made.
[00:13:27] DC: Was it a more effective warhead then?
[00:13:30] WS: It was more effective –
[00:13:32] DC: More blast area?
[00:13:33] WS: – more blast area, that means for certain applications that’s why it was made. Then the warhead, as such, surely had to be temperature insulated also during this reentry period. But this one had to be done with a minimum of mass and coming up there with the thickness of the layer and the proper material was also a part of my job. Another one was to determine the heat conductivity and the heat capacity of the TNT, if I may call it this way. I do not recall right now the proper name of the stuff in the warhead. And in doing this one, I guess, during war time you are not watching safety too well. But anyhow, I was doing this myself. I had to come up with a kind of a size of a hand grenade. Heating that from the outside had its temperature instrumented and then measuring the heat increase.
[00:14:47] DC: You made like a model study then?
[00:14:50] WS: Taking part of the proper stuff. But if the temperature would go too high it actually would go off. And in order to prevent that others were involved, that means I had to do it in a certain part of the building. But my safety precautions were not too well at that time. I still struggle a bit if I think about it right now.
[00:15:16] DC: Did you come up with anything to help improve the thickness of the warhead? What was the result of this?
[00:15:23] WS: We came up with a recommendation that means how many millimeters of insulation there ought to be so that the warhead just would not ignite it. There would be a few seconds time in order to come up with a maximum of warhead [inaudible] Not too much of the protection of it.
[00:15:50] DC: You were pretty well in the direct loop then. Problem areas, they would throw these problems out.
[00:15:56] WS: Since Professor Hase was a specialist in temperature measurement, radiation measurement, heat, that's why those problems came to pass. These are just a few of the ones which we were doing there and which I recall right now.
[00:16:11] DC: Was this part of the so-called ‘wisdom day’ effort where they would throw all the problems out on the table and people would come and look at them and select the ones they were interested in and take them back to the university to work on? Were you familiar with this?
[00:16:24] WS: I know that those things were coming about and at that time there was also other Peenemünde problems being picked up by the Navy or by the Air Force. How to overcome the [inaudible], the anti-[radar?] screens, the shaft and so on. We picked up a few then from the Navy also. But our main involvement was with Peenemünde. And I personally was mostly involved in the Peenemünde deal.
[00:17:07] DC: I understand that these wisdom day events, they would have these things and maybe give you two years to come back with a solution.
[00:17:15] WS: But that means we had enough problems with Peenemünde. So, we actually were more or less forced, I might say so, also to go to this type of meetings and to look at them and say – well, Professor Hase was essentially the one that was in judging who should work on it and if he would see something which maybe he could work on it. I remember I had to make a study once also out [inaudible]. For the flak, that means the anti-aircraft projectiles, in order to detonate them if they are not hitting the airplanes, could the change in the earth magnetic field which an airplane has, due to the fact that it has a lot of iron with it, could this one be used to detonate the anti-aircraft projectiles? And out of a few small experiments to support it and so on. And at that time, [inaudible] the amplifier deal, there was no miniaturization and so on. And in order to withstand shocks and so on, our conclusion was it is not enough.
[00:18:34] DC: This was for proximity fuze to Wasserfall?
[00:18:37] WS: Yeah, proximity fuze.
[00:18:38] DC: To Wasserfall, I mean.
[00:18:39] WS: No, not for Wasserfall. That means normal anti-aircraft. That means it was for the air force. It was not a Peenemünde type deal. But a proximity type deal. It's just since you mentioned those special projects that have been picked up. This one was one of them.
[00:18:58] DC: One basic question here. Who would actually originate these problem statements? Who was your contact coordinator at Peenemünde? Was it a technical man or administrator? Who were you dealing with?
[00:19:12] WS: We dealt with the technical. Like Mr. Schuler, for example, all his limitations for test stands.
[00:19:21] DC: Right. So, he would originate the scope of work, give you a contract and then you would come back.
[00:19:26] WS: Or Dr. [Steurer?], if it came to the field type deal. We had a few contracts, for example, to determine. He had certain materials which were treated at the outside for special projects coming up with special radiation coefficients. Alpha or epsilon type deals. And in order to find out if this one was right and up to which temperature it could descend and so on. So, we were working in the materials research to speak [inaudible] in this respect.
[00:19:58] DC: Well, let's see. Just to move it along now. Maybe we could go on down towards the end of the war.
[00:20:06] WS: Yeah, no.
[00:20:07] DC: Tell a little bit what happened to you and how you ended up with the group that came here. That might be interesting.
[00:20:14] WS: Now, towards the end of the war, one of the problems, let's say during the last six months, was that due to the bombing, some of the companies who were delivering raw material or such parts for the level gauges, it fell out. So, we had to look for special ones. I recall for example that in January of [’35?], I had to make a trip to Thüringen up to the glassblowers.
[00:20:45] DC: January ‘45?
[00:20:46] WS: Yeah. In order to find out if we could use for the level gauges where we were using certain ceramics at that time. It was a two-legged type, having electronics inside and having certain ceramics which were subbed in, so to speak. It was maybe making it out of glass since we could not get the ceramics anymore. I don't know. There was some problem in that. It didn't get too far since before they really could deliver [the things?]. Just a few weeks later, that means everything started to deteriorate. But anyhow, the last few weeks before being overhauled, I still was at Hanover at the institute. The bombing raids were practically every night, so I was spending most of my time. I was privately bombed out already twice, so my family was not in Hanover anymore. I was most of the nights at the university and in the shelter there. Quite a few bombing raids did hit the university and we had a firefight on those nights. Also, the laboratory I was working in was bombed out, I guess it was February of that year with all the… everything which I had written up and so on. So, I didn't get afterwards anything, no photos, no nothing.
[00:22:21] DC: Oh, really? You lost all your –
[00:22:23] WS: There was the part where this lab was situated. There was just empty air. This part of the building was just level.
[00:22:32] DC: [In that day?] you had nothing?
[00:22:33] WS: Including the apparatus which I had in there and all the instruments and so on. I had also there my last private books and let's say what you have from your studies and PhD and whatnot. The other part, a year prior to this one, I lost in a bombing rate on my private place. I was living at the fourth story of an apartment house and this one was completely demolished. So after having lost all this one, I didn't have much left in Hanover besides my working place. And so, when then the American forces were approaching Hanover from the west, they were about 20 kilometers to the west when according to instructions we were making, destroying certain things at the institute, certain paperwork.
[00:23:34] DC: Were these things classified as secret primarily?
[00:23:37] WS: Yeah, everything which was in a safe we had according to instructions to destroy. So, for example one of those igniters I talked about, those [Elefantenrüssel?] and so on, all those ones in the [Pyro-Werk?]. And then after doing this one, we were freed to do what I wanted.
[00:24:02] DC: Turned loose.
[00:24:04] WS: Turned loose at least, since it was already in the status of disorganization. There was more or less continuous bombing of Hanover and artillery you could hear to the west moving in. So, what I did was I still had a bicycle so I could take the little things I had which were just a briefcase full of things. And with the bicycle during a bombing raid, I left Hanover. Actually, against the instructions, since we had to work with so called Volkssturm. Everybody was supposed to get a gun and to shoot and so nobody was supposed to leave Hanover. But it was a nonsensical deal anyhow. So, I was convinced I couldn't help them there so I was using a bombing raid to leave Hanover where everybody was in the... I disappeared on my bicycle and did go north and my family lived about 120 kilometers north of Hanover in a small place called Rotenburg which is right in the middle between Bremen and Hanover and I tried to reach them. And in going up, that means fleeing German military groups were continuously crossing the road. I was, I guess, more in the ditches beside the road with my bicycle, since continuously [keep flying?] …
[00:25:57] DC: Was this around February?
[00:25:59] WS: That was in April. In April, I guess. I can't point the date right now. I guess the final day was the final day was 8th of May and it was three weeks prior to the final end when Dönitz or somebody made a final entry. Anyhow it was still three weeks to go. Hanover wasn't overhauled yet. Hamburg wasn't yet and they were just about approaching Bremen, I guess. So right in front of the front the … through the fleeing German groups I did find my way through the roads, not the main roads but still continuously keep fleeing airplanes were shooting at anything that was moving. So, it did take me a long time. I left fairly early in the morning. I guess it was a morning attack on Hanover at 6 o'clock and I arrived at midnight. A thing that I could have done in six hours easily. But there were quite a few hold ups and one of the most dangerous ones besides being shot – getting a bullet from anywhere, was that means in advancing quite a few prisoner camps and upper camps and so on were opened up and the prisons were opened up. So groups of those poor fellows they were just roaming around and I had to go with my bicycle just on my own through them and they all had sticks in their hands just to walk on and so on. So, they could have hit me but apparently, they were just marching somewhere like I was. Just like doped. Anyhow somehow, I made it to Rotenburg where my family was and I was glad. Actually, they were living in a hospital. My wife, I had her going to her brother, who was the chief medical fellow in a big hospital in Rotenburg. Not a military one, it was actually for retarded folks and so she was fairly safe there. And there it did take another two weeks before the, since it was far north it was the Britishers before they came to Rotenburg and those were also a few days especially one very bad day that means when they finally moved through Rotenburg. And then afterwards being under British occupation I had to report to the marketplace everybody who able bodied men between 15 and 65 had to report for clean-up work, and so on, under 40 Britishers. So, there was an airfield, former German airfield close by about 20 kilometers to Rotenburg which was completely destroyed due to air raid and so on. And this one was supposed to be made the place for a tank division or something like that.
[00:30:09] [recording cuts]
[00:30:20] WS: Werner Hans Sieber, again. [chuckles] I just mentioned at the other side that from Göttingen I was going to Witzenhausen signing my contract and going back to my family who didn't know anything about it. I arrived the next day late and told them that I signed up with the Americans and had a contract with them. They just didn't believe it but… Quite a few got crazy during this time. So, the first deal is contract surely you have something to show. My brother, who was where my wife did stay, he said, “He surely would have something to show!” No. Now I have to mention that he was a doctor in an institution for retarded and for…damaged… what do you call that?
[00:31:21] DC: Unstable.
[00:31:22] WS: He was, anyhow, not a psychoanalyst, but anyhow, knowing this type of deal. So, he was questioning that maybe I got crazy in the meantime or if I still was on my feet. Anyhow, yes that's what it is. And I even told them that I had been told that at a certain day, the Americans would come with a truck and pick up a few things which my wife had and picking them up my family and me and would bring us to Witzenhausen. This day would be so and so, and I guess that was about a week later something like this or maybe two weeks at the most. Anyhow they said alright we will find out. So, the day came closer and the few things we had we packed. Next morning at 6 the truck was supposed to come and it didn't come. We were ready, the kids were ready. No truck. No information either. The day did go by alright something might have happened. We did try the next day again. Sorry, no truck. We tried I guess a third time and then gave up. But now my credibility was completely gone. That means that the day prior to it we still had a big party. They brought out their last wine and so on. “Goodbye and see you in the United States,” and you know all these nice deals.
[00:33:07] DC: Sendoff party. [slight chuckle]
[00:33:09] WS: So, the credibility was definitely gone. And later I did find out that this doctor talked to his sister, my wife, privately and said, “I guess see this war had [inaudible]. Don't believe it too much. That means we just play along with him a little bit, but let's try to get him back on his feet,” and so on.
[00:33:37] DC: No one would believe you, if you had nothing to show.
[00:33:39] WS: Nothing to show! Now surely comes the following. That means every two weeks you had to get your ration cards in order to buy anything to live. Now I had worked at first in Rotenburg for the British then in Hanover and I closed it out in Hanover in order to go to Rotenburg and just to wait two weeks. I had enough ration cards to live. But now I didn't have ration cards and I would have to work again, show some work before I would get them. So, in order to get ration cards I didn't get them since I wasn't working. I did go to the burgermeister and said I wanted to talk privately with him. My name is so-and-so and so on and the following is the case. The Americans want to come and pick me up and have a contract with them to go for half a year over there and work with them and so on. He said, “That is a good story. Where does your paperwork?” I said, “There isn't.” Not even a piece of paper. I said “No, nothing at all. I'm not even supposed to talk about it. I can't give you.” Since now it's a small place and my brother-in-law was known I got for the next two weeks ration cards just to a special deal from the burgermeister. But unfortunately, after those two weeks still I wasn't picked up and no news.
[00:35:14] DC: You were getting a little mad by then.
[00:35:16] WS: I did go mad and somehow by some tricks, I just didn't want to start working again since they could come any time. And if I was 20 kilometers away, they wouldn't find me. I would miss it. So, I wanted to stay around the house as a matter of fact. I never did go away any further than my wife would know where it is so that within a few minutes we could be brought together. To make it short, they didn't believe me anymore.
[00:35:51] DC: How long did you wait there?
[00:35:53] WS: It was about four weeks and one day suddenly a jeep came up. Lieutenant Wheeler. I guess I recall his name. Lieutenant Wheeler came. “You are,” so and so. I never met him. “Yes I am.” “I am sorry that we couldn't pick you up.” Now, my English was even worse than it is now. I had some school English but still I could make out with him. Although he also could talk some German. We already did it in English. And he said the time now came and that they did not pick us up was due to the reason that Witzenhausen was not the place anymore but Landshut. Landshut would be. And in rearranging and making those preparations that means they didn't pick anybody up. But on the other side, they could not give us a message. So, they were very sorry. But now it's such and such a day and that was just three or four days later they would be coming. Now after he was around, they all believed us again and we finally moved down to Landshut.
[00:37:09] DC: You finally have a final going away party?
[00:37:11] WS: Now there was a final one, but there was no wine left. [Laughing] So we were moving by truck to Hanover and in Hanover we were put in a special car together with Dieter Grau and, I guess, his wife. He probably told you the same thing. And Millinger was in there and two or three others. Actually, it was an old car and this one was attached to a kind of a fast train. Which in the meantime, now they even had train connections going all the way that means down to Munich. And so, we did go with the train in an unheated car, it was freezing and so on. And finally, it showed up in Landshut. And there we were supposed as the third shipment. Dieter Huzel, and then Grau, and Millinger, and so on. About 30 of them, Angele and so on. And you probably heard from Angele what happened. He did show up there, Dr. Henning did show up there. He came out of a concentration camp, an American one and so on. They all did show up finally down there. And we were supposed still to go to the United States before Christmas. And probably somebody else told you already it did not quite work out this way. We had to wait until a very few days after Christmas. I really don't recall the date. And we were moved then from Landshut to Le Havre. In Le Havre we did stay several days, I don't know, maybe a week in the fortress there. Always being very well kept from contact with any American soldier or the population or what have you for our own protection, I guess. During this time, it still was needed. We were living underground in the Kasematten, that means the protected places.
[00:39:37] DC: Did you get another piece of paper this time or a contract?
[00:39:40] WS: No, no.
[00:39:41] DC: Still nothing more?
[00:39:43] WS: We didn't have anything in our hands. We did get sea ration on the trip and then did get, while we were in Le Havre, we were eating in the mess hall after all the other troops had eaten. And we were eating like hogs. I recall, there was many eggs in the morning. I personally, my weight was 124 pounds at that time when I arrived in Le Havre. And I started gaining very heavily from there on. Since we could eat as much as we wanted to, actually we were overdoing it, unfortunately. If you are hungry, you first eat and—
[00:40:29] DC: the [weight?] will catch up. That's what Angele said too. He was quite slim. Found out he could live on very little when you have to, you know. You still have a lot of energy.
[00:40:39] WS: And I recall, you know, cigarettes were something really scarce. And I guess a little piece of paper was given to us, you are right. One piece here that said that we were entitled to $6 a day. And from those $6 in Le Havre, I guess we got the first time $6 in our hands or something, we could buy cigarettes. So—
[00:41:06] DC: It’s like Christmas almost.
[00:41:08] WS: The cigarettes we could buy was Zipper. They were called Zipper. They were as bad as you can think of. I don't know why they were even made and for whom they were made. But anyhow, as soon as we could get a hold of better ones, we couldn't even smoke them. Although we were used to smoke [peppermint tea?] and [inaudible] during the war time. So, in Le Havre we were put on board of a Liberty ship. Actually, I'm following now completely the Angele story. So, he probably told you the 32 fellows of us we were brought in a room, let's say it was twice as big as this one, four or five on top of each other. And the weather was very rough and the captain prided himself one day to say there's no ship between the French coast and New York. Everybody could go back to the harbor. And that last day, we did make some progress. We could keep before the wind. Unfortunately, we were drifted back half a mile. So, we didn't make any progress. And it was really very rough. It was so rough that the ship made the funniest noises. And Dr. Henning who was a specialist in welding who was with us, he inspected some of those places.
[00:42:47] DC: Getting worried, yeah?
[00:42:49] WS: Just out of the fun of it. But we didn't feel too well. Actually, the whole ship was full of, I don't know if it had a division, it was about 2,000 soldiers, I don't know why it is. All of them negroes.
[00:43:05] DC: Oh black, [inaudible]. Do they know you were on the ship?
[00:43:09] They were not supposed to know it. So, we were kept in our room 24 hours a day. We had an adjoining place where we could – toilet, you know, this was the shower. And there was one hour a day where we could go on deck at a certain part. Just going up and standing there. So surely, they were aware of it. It was a prisoner group. That's how it was known to them. And whenever they left the mess hall, then we could go down and try to eat. Very few could eat. We were not allowed to bring any food to anybody who did stay back. So, some of them being very sick like Angele, we couldn't even bring him something back. So, he didn't eat anything. And he couldn't walk on his own anymore so we had to carry him to the medical [inaudible]. We were checked three times during this trip by the medics. They wanted to make them sure that we were not sick. Maybe they also did find it interesting that we used to check us out. Anyhow three times we had complete checkouts. And finally arriving in New York several days overdue. I guess it was 17 days. There was food on board only and water for 14 days. So, there was no drinking water left anymore. So, they started the machinery for converting sea water to drink water. There was a dark brownish steel which means you didn't want to do anything but wash your hands in it. Drinking, I don't know if they still had something for coffee or tea or something. I don't know how we were. Anyhow with the last sea rations, we finally made in New York. And there we were kept underneath in our room until six hours after the troops disembarked and nobody would see us. And then it was dark in the evening and then we did leave the ship and we did go on board of a bus and we were brought to Fort Belvoir near Washington, Alexandria.
And there we then did stay for, I guess, two weeks or something. Being interrogated by the CIA, or what all these organizations are, about all our connections with Hitler and the Nazis and what we did. I guess we were fingerprinted 50 times. I recall one whole morning a whole stack of cards. I had to repeat fingerprinting after fingerprinting. And they were sent around all across the world. They wanted to make sure. And I can see that. The lie detector tests were then done later in Fort Bliss. They were not done there. I do not recall it. But anyhow, there were quite a few truth interrogators who talked very well in German. They tried to find out if the history or the story of our life which we had to write down – but this was all the details – whether this was true or not. And then from there, we boarded a train all the way to Fort Bliss.
[00:46:58] DC: What about New Orleans?
[00:47:00] WS: Well, to New Orleans. It would take two days and two nights or something like this. Anyhow, so we had a special car for us. And then at special times we were permitted to go to the diner. And at that time nobody else was in the diner. And on our way to the diner, we were not supposed to talk at all so that nobody would find out that funny talk we had. But still we were looking very funny with our clothes.
[00:47:37] DC: Just what you had on your back?
[00:47:3] WS: After all the bombing raids and so on underneath you had funny shoes. So, we looked like a funny [pack?]. Everybody looking, “What's that?” But in a way, apparently lots of things can happen over here. Even a funny group like this can go across country.
[00:48:02] DC: Nobody says too much, eh?
[00:48:03] WS: No reporters. That was the main deal. No reporters were supposed to come. We were not supposed to talk to anybody.
[00:48:09] DC: How many American soldiers were with you at the time? Were they in civi—
[00:48:12] WS: Civilian. Civilians.
[00:48:13] DC: Civilians. How many were there?
[00:48:16] WS: To be Frank, I don't know. Let's say three.
[00:48:19] DC: Three?
[00:48:20] WS: Four.
[00:48:21] DC: Thirty people. Three soldiers.
[00:48:24] WS: Yeah. Yeah. Just among us.
[00:48:29] DC: Were you surprised at what you saw in America? Did you expect what you saw? Or what was your impression?
[00:48:37] WS: Oh, I was surely very eager to see what was going on. So, at first, we were beefed a bit that incoming into New York Harbor we couldn't be on deck and look at it.
[00:48:47] DC: See the skyline.
[00:48:48] WS: Skyline. And at the other side, that means our cabin did not have any port hole. We couldn't look out at all. So, it did take several hours until we finally could go on deck and see the skyline. But at that time, you were already anchored. You didn't see how coming in or the Statue of Liberty or all that you normally expect to see. So, we had to be under deck at that time. And then going with this train, it's very interesting. It's going through small villages and seeing how the train stops in a village that is right close to the roadway that is without the big railroad station. We did find out that most of the road crossings did not have to [pass standard?].
[00:49:46] DC: Looked pretty primitive, I guess.
[00:49:44] WS: It was just a completely different deal. And then the wideness of the country. You could ride for hours without seeing much on cities or heavy stations. That was very interesting. Then in New Orleans we had an hour overlay so we could go out of the car and just go around the block, so to speak, without contacting anybody. So, we didn't see anything from New Orleans besides going across the railroad from the Mississippi. So, it was a very interesting trip. Finally coming to West Texas and the desert and then finally winding up in Fort Bliss by there where there's not much green.
[00:50:32] DC: When you got to Bliss, did you go out to the launch stands much? Or did you stay right at El Paso?
[00:50:39] WS: I personally did stay very much in Fort Bliss proper. I belonged to a group which was supposed to plan for test stands for the ramjet. It was this project which we were supposed to work on. So, we had to look through catalogs and discussing it also with certain company representatives on what type of instrumentation we would be using to build up test stands for ramjet development. And having the test stands built in a way that they could be put, either built right away on it or could be put on flatbeds in order to move them up—
[00:51:30] DC: So you started looking through catalogs and instruments?
[00:51:34] WS: Yeah. All right. So, I was supposed to head up the instrumentation group for the test stands of the ramjet development. So, I was not in the design group for, let me say, it was just the test stands. So that's where most of my assignment was for. We then were building up in Fort Bliss test stands, as you probably had heard from others already, a small wind tunnel, blow down type wind tunnel, which was a unique deal also. Because at that time we were very few and we did not have much help. So, for example, the little wind tunnel, it's a blow down one of these bottles which had high pressure air and then blowing it down and having Schlieren pictures and making, I was building up a little Schlieren apparatus for it and having three pressure measurements on the models, which was the intake type nozzle for the run track. It was supposed to be a supersonic one. So, all the shock waves should be shown here. And building up the instrumentation for it, that means I personally was my own designer and technician. I was cabling it up. I was doing the test running the test.
[00:53:01] DC: It was like the old days at Peenemünde; starting from scratch all over again.
[00:53:04] WS: So actually, during the test of this little, I guess it did take us two years to build it up. It was a little shed where the test stand was in, the [bottles?] outside and a measuring trailer connected to it is about 25 [?] in the oscillograph. All remotely to be controlled. And we were actually three fellows running the test stand. Max Novak was one. In charge, was Herman Weidner and myself. So, the three of us were running the test. We were inside of the test stand and taking the manipulations. Max Novak opening up the big valves. We sent him to turning and so on. And Weidner being in charge of it. And it was a tremendous noise in this little shed. And the roof was nearly falling in. I recall only that when at that time Colonel Toftoy was supposed to visit us, he was not permitted to be doing the test inside of the shed.
[00:53:22] DC: When did you first meet Toftoy? What was your experience with him?
[00:53:26] WS: To be frank, I personally did not have too many contacts with him. I surely met him it was quite... [coughing] Sorry about the interruption. You were asking when I met at that time Colonel Toftoy. Actually, was during some meeting in Fort Bliss, not prior to it. We had what was called certain [?] room, main assemblies where everybody was coming together. At that time Major Hamill was telling us how things were going, what we should do and should not do. He was our commanding officer. But surely Colonel Toftoy came for a visit once in a while.
[00:55:16] DC: Hamill was more of the [inaudible].
[00:55:19] WS: Hamill surely was the one whom we had practically daily contact with. That Colonel Toftoy was actually in Washington or somewhere else. What other names do you recall of the Americans or GE people? Any other people there?
[00:53:37] WS: All right, we had quite some contact with the GE people. A fellow, unfortunately, not remembering too well the names. I surely remember Dr. Porter's name. I really do not know when I saw him or if I saw him at all. But there were certain other ones with GE and we were working together with them very closely. But I am sorry that after 25 years and I am getting old, I am not shaking with my head yet, but the memory of the names is always something bad.
[00:56:13] DC: Well, what were you doing with GE? Were they taking your sketches and making drawings?
[00:56:17] WS: Yeah, that’s right. They were the design group. They were the ordering group. They were just like a support group. What mostly like a support group does. I do not know if this one was supposed to be the role or the proper designation for it. Actually, you could call it they were in charge of it and we were helping them. That is more how it looked like. But they were the ones really behind it, building up and seeing that things were built up and also providing the manpower to others.
[00:56:52] DC: Were there a few people out there at that time from GE? Where did they come from? Did they come in from—
[00:56:58] WS: They had a special place where they did stay at in Fort Bliss. But… I am sorry. At that time, I was more in the planning work. I did have certain contacts, but maybe I did not care that much or I forgot about it. How that was organized. I left it up to the Schilling [center?] and the Heimburg [center?]. I was worrying about it and I heard about their problems.
[00:57:28] DC: Then you worked on this ramjet program for quite a while, then you eventually came to Huntsville. Did you work on anything else at Fort Bliss besides the ramjet?
[00:57:38] WS: No, it was essentially this ramjet program. We finally did build our test stands. The low-down wind tunnel was a local one. The other test stands, the ignition test stand and the compression test stand, were built on flat beds so that we could move with them. We actually did. I do not know if it was ‘48 or ‘49. We did move up in the California mountains close to Bishop, up to 10,000 feet high. The purpose was to run the ramjet at a higher elevation. The test stands were made movable and so we were spending a late summer. It was not no wind, but at least there was no snow.
[00:58:30] DC: What part of California was this?
[00:58:34] WS: Bishop is the closest part of it, the closest city. From there I did go up, let's say, 10 miles up in the mountains, close to the King's Canyon. There was a lake. Unfortunately, here again, remembering names is something bad for me. Maybe I can point it out over here.
[00:59:01] [recording cuts]
[00:59:03] DC: Like the Navajo program, did you have any contact with any other [inaudible]?
[00:59:08] WS: I personally did not have any. Thinking back, there might have been a few other things. Especially during the first year, once in a while, a [wizard?] was announced coming from somewhere across the country wanting to know what we were doing. For example, I recall that one fellow was very much interested in servo and this line reversal machine which we were building for Kummersdorf. Or how the level gauges were built up. This type of thing. We were trying to get information from it. There was some scanty type of literature available, but most of it they did try to get out of the discussions.
[00:59:53] DC: What was the final conclusion of the ramjet program? Did it really work out? It was finally cancelled?
[00:59:59] WS: It was finally cancelled. Now don't ask me. Mr. Heimburg probably could answer the question or somebody why it–
[1:00:08] [recording cut]
[END]
[00:00:20] David Christensen: And you would tell a little bit about how you got involved with Peenemünde starting in ‘36.
[00:00:27] WS: That means starting in 1936 again. That means being an assistant, a scientific or engineering assistant in the Institute for Technical Physics or Applied Physics at the University of – Technical University of Hanover. I got involved for the first time, I did hear about the Peenemünde project for the first time about ‘36, ‘37. And Dr. von Braun and Dr. Thiel were having a discussion with Professor Hase, who was the boss of the Institute. I'm not quite sure if this was the first time that Dr. von Braun had discussions with Professor Hase. But at that time, I accidentally became witness of it since I was running a special experiment in the large room of Professor Hase’s. And when Dr. von Braun came, I was asked to sit on the table and participate in the discussion. And from this developed at first a cooperative type of work with Kummersdorf at that time. We had to develop flame temperature measuring instrument based on the line reversal method. And it was supposed to be an automated one, since it was supposed to sit close to the rocket engine and to measure the temperature. And from there more involvement, especially later when the project moved to Peenemünde resulted. The Institute was about 50% engaged with their work to work together with Peenemünde when the war arrived.
[00:02:30] WS: I personally was still at the Institute at that time to finish my thesis, my PhD thesis. And actually, I made my PhD before the war started in ‘39 and had a contract with Zeiss Jena. But when the war arrived, I was civilian type drafted together with several of the Institute to work for the Peenemünde project. So being drafted as a civilian for the Peenemünde project, I had from there a massive contact with Peenemünde. I did live in Hanover and did mainly work in the Applied Physics Institute to develop instrumentation. But I had to do many TDY trips up to Peenemünde, normally staying for several weeks there, trying out the instrumentation and coming back and improving it. My personal contact essentially was during the first two years with the wind tunnel and Dr. Herrmann and Mr. Ramm of the wind tunnel at that time. But I had to develop was the temperature measuring method for the wind tunnel and we choose to use the Schlieren method and having upstreams of the wind tunnel arc which would create a shock wave. And this shock wave going through the field of view of the Schlieren apparatus would be illuminated from the Schlieren apparatus with two other arcs, the time difference between was known, the distance on the picture was known, so this way the velocity and out of the velocity the temperature was derived. Now this one was only one of 40 different research contracts which the Institute of Applied Physics in Hanover under Professor Hase had to accomplish for Peenemünde. The arrangement was very similar, in a way actually, as nowadays the government is contracting with universities. I, in the meantime, became chief engineer of the Institute and as such had contact then also with the other research contracts and personally also was not only supervising but working on some of them throughout the next few years. And they were not so much for the wind tunnel anymore but actually for the test division, if I may call it this way. I don't recall the proper name under Dr. Schilling at that time. Mr. Heimburg was part of it and my main contact in the test division was the instrument development lab under Mr. Albert Schuler.
[00:05:51] DC: He was directing with Peenemünde and you were working closely with Schuler.
[00:05:55] WS: Schuler was in charge of the instrument development lab. He was developing instrumentation up at Peenemünde but most of it contracting it out to university institutes. They were in Dresden [or Traisen?], in Darmstadt and in Hanover. They were the three main ones I recall at that time. And our main contact with Schuler was to develop level gauges for liquid oxygen and for alcohol. And those ones mass producing also for all the first charts and all the first V-2's had our level gauges in it.
[00:06:43] DC: Did they become flight hardware?
[00:06:45] WS: So, they became flight hardware, and we had to come up with a certain production of it involving local industry in Hanover. And developing it, manufacturing it, checking it out and then taking care of all the mishaps which normally will come about. It was one of the works which I had to do for 20 years, ‘41, ‘42, ‘43 and so on.
[00:07:17] DC: So, in other words the university was the prime contractor, and you had to go out and sub out the hardware and all these other items?
[00:07:25] WS: That's right.
[00:07:26] DC: It was a little bit of a unique situation. I guess you don't really have that in this country, do you?
[00:07:32] WS: I do not really know how the contracting part was done right now if you ask me. I was essentially behind the quality control to get the materials together, seeing that this part is done for the check out and so on. The contracting could have been done — I do not know. Professor Hase actually had a unique position. He was professor and director of the Institute for Applied Physics but at the same time he also had a private company, the so-called Pyro-Werk where he developed temperature and radiation sensing instrumentation.
[00:08:19] DC: [He got to wear two hats now?].
[00:08:21] WS: [Two hats?] and also part of the contracts or the contacts with Peenemünde were with the Pyro-Werk and part of it was the Institute. Both being together so we did do some of the research, which then was manufactured through the Pyro-Werk. So, the Pyro-Werk, the small one, let’s say 50 to 100 men per year but a very specialized instrumentation company. And Dr. [Schitting?] who I had later made contact in the fundamental which he became the boss of the test division so to speak. That means he was deputy director of this Pyro-Werk right at the start of the war. That means the deputy to Professor Hase, at the company. Whereas I was the counterpart at the Institute and was called over engineer at that time. So that is how we worked together.
[00:09:22] DC: Would you talk a little bit about some of the problems at the end of the war, materials, quality control. I am sure things deteriorated there. Did you keep production going pretty well on these instruments?
[00:09:34] WS: No, we surely had problems. The longer the war lasted, the more difficult it became to get the proper materials for our instruments. Especially the level gauges having them manufactured and competing with other contracts those companies had.
[00:09:54] DC: Who had the priority in other words?
[00:09:55] WS: So, the priority deal and continuously our priority either did go down and then there was another one, I forgot all the code names, but whenever the new priority for Peenemünde or if they had a good shot and it looked like it was a good deal then we got a good priority and also could get something.
[00:10:16] DC: It would shift occasionally. The priorities would shift.
[00:10:18] WS: Through the so called Rüstungskommando, that means the local military installation who was governing what the companies whom they were working for and watching the priorities for.
[00:10:32] DC: The military government was overseeing all these different things.
[00:10:35] WS: It was a military production type agency in Hanover for…
[00:10:42] DC: For that area.
[00:10:43] WS: For the area. So, we had to work for them and getting the men on our service for the instruments. Now out of the 40 research contracts which we were doing some of them were for the warheads. One of them was for example developing a special ‘feeler’ which was the very front of the V-2 would be the one touching ground first and exploding at the back. So that was something half a meter long and an electrical device. And this one surely had to be developed in a way that it would not explode the warhead already while getting warm during the heating period during reentry.
[00:11:38] DC: Was it ever developed and used?
[00:11:43] WS: It was used. It was then mass produced since it was a quartz type tubing deal with electrical contact was produced by the OSRAM in Berlin.
[00:12:01] DC: And your group developed it?
[00:12:03] WS: It was developed and all the heating type of experiments if they would withstand the heat of what we essentially did is, we were dipping this [worry?] and it was called the Elefantenrüssel part. The nose part of an… the trunk of an elephant. It was the sensitive part which was in front of it. I personally was involved in it. We were dipping it in hot melting metal which would have the proper heat transfer like it would see during reentry. Simulating this type of – and seeing that it would not ignite it but only after it is down there. But on the other side keeping it mass-wise and as light so that most of it could be warhead.
[00:13:02] DC: Did you ever consider putting a timer that would only activate the warhead after a certain point in the trajectory?
[00:13:10] WS: I did. This one was…
[00:13:12] DC: That way too.
[00:13:13] WS: – that way too. But I do not recall right now when it was made active. But anyhow it was the main heating part during which time it was made.
[00:13:27] DC: Was it a more effective warhead then?
[00:13:30] WS: It was more effective –
[00:13:32] DC: More blast area?
[00:13:33] WS: – more blast area, that means for certain applications that’s why it was made. Then the warhead, as such, surely had to be temperature insulated also during this reentry period. But this one had to be done with a minimum of mass and coming up there with the thickness of the layer and the proper material was also a part of my job. Another one was to determine the heat conductivity and the heat capacity of the TNT, if I may call it this way. I do not recall right now the proper name of the stuff in the warhead. And in doing this one, I guess, during war time you are not watching safety too well. But anyhow, I was doing this myself. I had to come up with a kind of a size of a hand grenade. Heating that from the outside had its temperature instrumented and then measuring the heat increase.
[00:14:47] DC: You made like a model study then?
[00:14:50] WS: Taking part of the proper stuff. But if the temperature would go too high it actually would go off. And in order to prevent that others were involved, that means I had to do it in a certain part of the building. But my safety precautions were not too well at that time. I still struggle a bit if I think about it right now.
[00:15:16] DC: Did you come up with anything to help improve the thickness of the warhead? What was the result of this?
[00:15:23] WS: We came up with a recommendation that means how many millimeters of insulation there ought to be so that the warhead just would not ignite it. There would be a few seconds time in order to come up with a maximum of warhead [inaudible] Not too much of the protection of it.
[00:15:50] DC: You were pretty well in the direct loop then. Problem areas, they would throw these problems out.
[00:15:56] WS: Since Professor Hase was a specialist in temperature measurement, radiation measurement, heat, that's why those problems came to pass. These are just a few of the ones which we were doing there and which I recall right now.
[00:16:11] DC: Was this part of the so-called ‘wisdom day’ effort where they would throw all the problems out on the table and people would come and look at them and select the ones they were interested in and take them back to the university to work on? Were you familiar with this?
[00:16:24] WS: I know that those things were coming about and at that time there was also other Peenemünde problems being picked up by the Navy or by the Air Force. How to overcome the [inaudible], the anti-[radar?] screens, the shaft and so on. We picked up a few then from the Navy also. But our main involvement was with Peenemünde. And I personally was mostly involved in the Peenemünde deal.
[00:17:07] DC: I understand that these wisdom day events, they would have these things and maybe give you two years to come back with a solution.
[00:17:15] WS: But that means we had enough problems with Peenemünde. So, we actually were more or less forced, I might say so, also to go to this type of meetings and to look at them and say – well, Professor Hase was essentially the one that was in judging who should work on it and if he would see something which maybe he could work on it. I remember I had to make a study once also out [inaudible]. For the flak, that means the anti-aircraft projectiles, in order to detonate them if they are not hitting the airplanes, could the change in the earth magnetic field which an airplane has, due to the fact that it has a lot of iron with it, could this one be used to detonate the anti-aircraft projectiles? And out of a few small experiments to support it and so on. And at that time, [inaudible] the amplifier deal, there was no miniaturization and so on. And in order to withstand shocks and so on, our conclusion was it is not enough.
[00:18:34] DC: This was for proximity fuze to Wasserfall?
[00:18:37] WS: Yeah, proximity fuze.
[00:18:38] DC: To Wasserfall, I mean.
[00:18:39] WS: No, not for Wasserfall. That means normal anti-aircraft. That means it was for the air force. It was not a Peenemünde type deal. But a proximity type deal. It's just since you mentioned those special projects that have been picked up. This one was one of them.
[00:18:58] DC: One basic question here. Who would actually originate these problem statements? Who was your contact coordinator at Peenemünde? Was it a technical man or administrator? Who were you dealing with?
[00:19:12] WS: We dealt with the technical. Like Mr. Schuler, for example, all his limitations for test stands.
[00:19:21] DC: Right. So, he would originate the scope of work, give you a contract and then you would come back.
[00:19:26] WS: Or Dr. [Steurer?], if it came to the field type deal. We had a few contracts, for example, to determine. He had certain materials which were treated at the outside for special projects coming up with special radiation coefficients. Alpha or epsilon type deals. And in order to find out if this one was right and up to which temperature it could descend and so on. So, we were working in the materials research to speak [inaudible] in this respect.
[00:19:58] DC: Well, let's see. Just to move it along now. Maybe we could go on down towards the end of the war.
[00:20:06] WS: Yeah, no.
[00:20:07] DC: Tell a little bit what happened to you and how you ended up with the group that came here. That might be interesting.
[00:20:14] WS: Now, towards the end of the war, one of the problems, let's say during the last six months, was that due to the bombing, some of the companies who were delivering raw material or such parts for the level gauges, it fell out. So, we had to look for special ones. I recall for example that in January of [’35?], I had to make a trip to Thüringen up to the glassblowers.
[00:20:45] DC: January ‘45?
[00:20:46] WS: Yeah. In order to find out if we could use for the level gauges where we were using certain ceramics at that time. It was a two-legged type, having electronics inside and having certain ceramics which were subbed in, so to speak. It was maybe making it out of glass since we could not get the ceramics anymore. I don't know. There was some problem in that. It didn't get too far since before they really could deliver [the things?]. Just a few weeks later, that means everything started to deteriorate. But anyhow, the last few weeks before being overhauled, I still was at Hanover at the institute. The bombing raids were practically every night, so I was spending most of my time. I was privately bombed out already twice, so my family was not in Hanover anymore. I was most of the nights at the university and in the shelter there. Quite a few bombing raids did hit the university and we had a firefight on those nights. Also, the laboratory I was working in was bombed out, I guess it was February of that year with all the… everything which I had written up and so on. So, I didn't get afterwards anything, no photos, no nothing.
[00:22:21] DC: Oh, really? You lost all your –
[00:22:23] WS: There was the part where this lab was situated. There was just empty air. This part of the building was just level.
[00:22:32] DC: [In that day?] you had nothing?
[00:22:33] WS: Including the apparatus which I had in there and all the instruments and so on. I had also there my last private books and let's say what you have from your studies and PhD and whatnot. The other part, a year prior to this one, I lost in a bombing rate on my private place. I was living at the fourth story of an apartment house and this one was completely demolished. So after having lost all this one, I didn't have much left in Hanover besides my working place. And so, when then the American forces were approaching Hanover from the west, they were about 20 kilometers to the west when according to instructions we were making, destroying certain things at the institute, certain paperwork.
[00:23:34] DC: Were these things classified as secret primarily?
[00:23:37] WS: Yeah, everything which was in a safe we had according to instructions to destroy. So, for example one of those igniters I talked about, those [Elefantenrüssel?] and so on, all those ones in the [Pyro-Werk?]. And then after doing this one, we were freed to do what I wanted.
[00:24:02] DC: Turned loose.
[00:24:04] WS: Turned loose at least, since it was already in the status of disorganization. There was more or less continuous bombing of Hanover and artillery you could hear to the west moving in. So, what I did was I still had a bicycle so I could take the little things I had which were just a briefcase full of things. And with the bicycle during a bombing raid, I left Hanover. Actually, against the instructions, since we had to work with so called Volkssturm. Everybody was supposed to get a gun and to shoot and so nobody was supposed to leave Hanover. But it was a nonsensical deal anyhow. So, I was convinced I couldn't help them there so I was using a bombing raid to leave Hanover where everybody was in the... I disappeared on my bicycle and did go north and my family lived about 120 kilometers north of Hanover in a small place called Rotenburg which is right in the middle between Bremen and Hanover and I tried to reach them. And in going up, that means fleeing German military groups were continuously crossing the road. I was, I guess, more in the ditches beside the road with my bicycle, since continuously [keep flying?] …
[00:25:57] DC: Was this around February?
[00:25:59] WS: That was in April. In April, I guess. I can't point the date right now. I guess the final day was the final day was 8th of May and it was three weeks prior to the final end when Dönitz or somebody made a final entry. Anyhow it was still three weeks to go. Hanover wasn't overhauled yet. Hamburg wasn't yet and they were just about approaching Bremen, I guess. So right in front of the front the … through the fleeing German groups I did find my way through the roads, not the main roads but still continuously keep fleeing airplanes were shooting at anything that was moving. So, it did take me a long time. I left fairly early in the morning. I guess it was a morning attack on Hanover at 6 o'clock and I arrived at midnight. A thing that I could have done in six hours easily. But there were quite a few hold ups and one of the most dangerous ones besides being shot – getting a bullet from anywhere, was that means in advancing quite a few prisoner camps and upper camps and so on were opened up and the prisons were opened up. So groups of those poor fellows they were just roaming around and I had to go with my bicycle just on my own through them and they all had sticks in their hands just to walk on and so on. So, they could have hit me but apparently, they were just marching somewhere like I was. Just like doped. Anyhow somehow, I made it to Rotenburg where my family was and I was glad. Actually, they were living in a hospital. My wife, I had her going to her brother, who was the chief medical fellow in a big hospital in Rotenburg. Not a military one, it was actually for retarded folks and so she was fairly safe there. And there it did take another two weeks before the, since it was far north it was the Britishers before they came to Rotenburg and those were also a few days especially one very bad day that means when they finally moved through Rotenburg. And then afterwards being under British occupation I had to report to the marketplace everybody who able bodied men between 15 and 65 had to report for clean-up work, and so on, under 40 Britishers. So, there was an airfield, former German airfield close by about 20 kilometers to Rotenburg which was completely destroyed due to air raid and so on. And this one was supposed to be made the place for a tank division or something like that.
[00:30:09] [recording cuts]
[00:30:20] WS: Werner Hans Sieber, again. [chuckles] I just mentioned at the other side that from Göttingen I was going to Witzenhausen signing my contract and going back to my family who didn't know anything about it. I arrived the next day late and told them that I signed up with the Americans and had a contract with them. They just didn't believe it but… Quite a few got crazy during this time. So, the first deal is contract surely you have something to show. My brother, who was where my wife did stay, he said, “He surely would have something to show!” No. Now I have to mention that he was a doctor in an institution for retarded and for…damaged… what do you call that?
[00:31:21] DC: Unstable.
[00:31:22] WS: He was, anyhow, not a psychoanalyst, but anyhow, knowing this type of deal. So, he was questioning that maybe I got crazy in the meantime or if I still was on my feet. Anyhow, yes that's what it is. And I even told them that I had been told that at a certain day, the Americans would come with a truck and pick up a few things which my wife had and picking them up my family and me and would bring us to Witzenhausen. This day would be so and so, and I guess that was about a week later something like this or maybe two weeks at the most. Anyhow they said alright we will find out. So, the day came closer and the few things we had we packed. Next morning at 6 the truck was supposed to come and it didn't come. We were ready, the kids were ready. No truck. No information either. The day did go by alright something might have happened. We did try the next day again. Sorry, no truck. We tried I guess a third time and then gave up. But now my credibility was completely gone. That means that the day prior to it we still had a big party. They brought out their last wine and so on. “Goodbye and see you in the United States,” and you know all these nice deals.
[00:33:07] DC: Sendoff party. [slight chuckle]
[00:33:09] WS: So, the credibility was definitely gone. And later I did find out that this doctor talked to his sister, my wife, privately and said, “I guess see this war had [inaudible]. Don't believe it too much. That means we just play along with him a little bit, but let's try to get him back on his feet,” and so on.
[00:33:37] DC: No one would believe you, if you had nothing to show.
[00:33:39] WS: Nothing to show! Now surely comes the following. That means every two weeks you had to get your ration cards in order to buy anything to live. Now I had worked at first in Rotenburg for the British then in Hanover and I closed it out in Hanover in order to go to Rotenburg and just to wait two weeks. I had enough ration cards to live. But now I didn't have ration cards and I would have to work again, show some work before I would get them. So, in order to get ration cards I didn't get them since I wasn't working. I did go to the burgermeister and said I wanted to talk privately with him. My name is so-and-so and so on and the following is the case. The Americans want to come and pick me up and have a contract with them to go for half a year over there and work with them and so on. He said, “That is a good story. Where does your paperwork?” I said, “There isn't.” Not even a piece of paper. I said “No, nothing at all. I'm not even supposed to talk about it. I can't give you.” Since now it's a small place and my brother-in-law was known I got for the next two weeks ration cards just to a special deal from the burgermeister. But unfortunately, after those two weeks still I wasn't picked up and no news.
[00:35:14] DC: You were getting a little mad by then.
[00:35:16] WS: I did go mad and somehow by some tricks, I just didn't want to start working again since they could come any time. And if I was 20 kilometers away, they wouldn't find me. I would miss it. So, I wanted to stay around the house as a matter of fact. I never did go away any further than my wife would know where it is so that within a few minutes we could be brought together. To make it short, they didn't believe me anymore.
[00:35:51] DC: How long did you wait there?
[00:35:53] WS: It was about four weeks and one day suddenly a jeep came up. Lieutenant Wheeler. I guess I recall his name. Lieutenant Wheeler came. “You are,” so and so. I never met him. “Yes I am.” “I am sorry that we couldn't pick you up.” Now, my English was even worse than it is now. I had some school English but still I could make out with him. Although he also could talk some German. We already did it in English. And he said the time now came and that they did not pick us up was due to the reason that Witzenhausen was not the place anymore but Landshut. Landshut would be. And in rearranging and making those preparations that means they didn't pick anybody up. But on the other side, they could not give us a message. So, they were very sorry. But now it's such and such a day and that was just three or four days later they would be coming. Now after he was around, they all believed us again and we finally moved down to Landshut.
[00:37:09] DC: You finally have a final going away party?
[00:37:11] WS: Now there was a final one, but there was no wine left. [Laughing] So we were moving by truck to Hanover and in Hanover we were put in a special car together with Dieter Grau and, I guess, his wife. He probably told you the same thing. And Millinger was in there and two or three others. Actually, it was an old car and this one was attached to a kind of a fast train. Which in the meantime, now they even had train connections going all the way that means down to Munich. And so, we did go with the train in an unheated car, it was freezing and so on. And finally, it showed up in Landshut. And there we were supposed as the third shipment. Dieter Huzel, and then Grau, and Millinger, and so on. About 30 of them, Angele and so on. And you probably heard from Angele what happened. He did show up there, Dr. Henning did show up there. He came out of a concentration camp, an American one and so on. They all did show up finally down there. And we were supposed still to go to the United States before Christmas. And probably somebody else told you already it did not quite work out this way. We had to wait until a very few days after Christmas. I really don't recall the date. And we were moved then from Landshut to Le Havre. In Le Havre we did stay several days, I don't know, maybe a week in the fortress there. Always being very well kept from contact with any American soldier or the population or what have you for our own protection, I guess. During this time, it still was needed. We were living underground in the Kasematten, that means the protected places.
[00:39:37] DC: Did you get another piece of paper this time or a contract?
[00:39:40] WS: No, no.
[00:39:41] DC: Still nothing more?
[00:39:43] WS: We didn't have anything in our hands. We did get sea ration on the trip and then did get, while we were in Le Havre, we were eating in the mess hall after all the other troops had eaten. And we were eating like hogs. I recall, there was many eggs in the morning. I personally, my weight was 124 pounds at that time when I arrived in Le Havre. And I started gaining very heavily from there on. Since we could eat as much as we wanted to, actually we were overdoing it, unfortunately. If you are hungry, you first eat and—
[00:40:29] DC: the [weight?] will catch up. That's what Angele said too. He was quite slim. Found out he could live on very little when you have to, you know. You still have a lot of energy.
[00:40:39] WS: And I recall, you know, cigarettes were something really scarce. And I guess a little piece of paper was given to us, you are right. One piece here that said that we were entitled to $6 a day. And from those $6 in Le Havre, I guess we got the first time $6 in our hands or something, we could buy cigarettes. So—
[00:41:06] DC: It’s like Christmas almost.
[00:41:08] WS: The cigarettes we could buy was Zipper. They were called Zipper. They were as bad as you can think of. I don't know why they were even made and for whom they were made. But anyhow, as soon as we could get a hold of better ones, we couldn't even smoke them. Although we were used to smoke [peppermint tea?] and [inaudible] during the war time. So, in Le Havre we were put on board of a Liberty ship. Actually, I'm following now completely the Angele story. So, he probably told you the 32 fellows of us we were brought in a room, let's say it was twice as big as this one, four or five on top of each other. And the weather was very rough and the captain prided himself one day to say there's no ship between the French coast and New York. Everybody could go back to the harbor. And that last day, we did make some progress. We could keep before the wind. Unfortunately, we were drifted back half a mile. So, we didn't make any progress. And it was really very rough. It was so rough that the ship made the funniest noises. And Dr. Henning who was a specialist in welding who was with us, he inspected some of those places.
[00:42:47] DC: Getting worried, yeah?
[00:42:49] WS: Just out of the fun of it. But we didn't feel too well. Actually, the whole ship was full of, I don't know if it had a division, it was about 2,000 soldiers, I don't know why it is. All of them negroes.
[00:43:05] DC: Oh black, [inaudible]. Do they know you were on the ship?
[00:43:09] They were not supposed to know it. So, we were kept in our room 24 hours a day. We had an adjoining place where we could – toilet, you know, this was the shower. And there was one hour a day where we could go on deck at a certain part. Just going up and standing there. So surely, they were aware of it. It was a prisoner group. That's how it was known to them. And whenever they left the mess hall, then we could go down and try to eat. Very few could eat. We were not allowed to bring any food to anybody who did stay back. So, some of them being very sick like Angele, we couldn't even bring him something back. So, he didn't eat anything. And he couldn't walk on his own anymore so we had to carry him to the medical [inaudible]. We were checked three times during this trip by the medics. They wanted to make them sure that we were not sick. Maybe they also did find it interesting that we used to check us out. Anyhow three times we had complete checkouts. And finally arriving in New York several days overdue. I guess it was 17 days. There was food on board only and water for 14 days. So, there was no drinking water left anymore. So, they started the machinery for converting sea water to drink water. There was a dark brownish steel which means you didn't want to do anything but wash your hands in it. Drinking, I don't know if they still had something for coffee or tea or something. I don't know how we were. Anyhow with the last sea rations, we finally made in New York. And there we were kept underneath in our room until six hours after the troops disembarked and nobody would see us. And then it was dark in the evening and then we did leave the ship and we did go on board of a bus and we were brought to Fort Belvoir near Washington, Alexandria.
And there we then did stay for, I guess, two weeks or something. Being interrogated by the CIA, or what all these organizations are, about all our connections with Hitler and the Nazis and what we did. I guess we were fingerprinted 50 times. I recall one whole morning a whole stack of cards. I had to repeat fingerprinting after fingerprinting. And they were sent around all across the world. They wanted to make sure. And I can see that. The lie detector tests were then done later in Fort Bliss. They were not done there. I do not recall it. But anyhow, there were quite a few truth interrogators who talked very well in German. They tried to find out if the history or the story of our life which we had to write down – but this was all the details – whether this was true or not. And then from there, we boarded a train all the way to Fort Bliss.
[00:46:58] DC: What about New Orleans?
[00:47:00] WS: Well, to New Orleans. It would take two days and two nights or something like this. Anyhow, so we had a special car for us. And then at special times we were permitted to go to the diner. And at that time nobody else was in the diner. And on our way to the diner, we were not supposed to talk at all so that nobody would find out that funny talk we had. But still we were looking very funny with our clothes.
[00:47:37] DC: Just what you had on your back?
[00:47:3] WS: After all the bombing raids and so on underneath you had funny shoes. So, we looked like a funny [pack?]. Everybody looking, “What's that?” But in a way, apparently lots of things can happen over here. Even a funny group like this can go across country.
[00:48:02] DC: Nobody says too much, eh?
[00:48:03] WS: No reporters. That was the main deal. No reporters were supposed to come. We were not supposed to talk to anybody.
[00:48:09] DC: How many American soldiers were with you at the time? Were they in civi—
[00:48:12] WS: Civilian. Civilians.
[00:48:13] DC: Civilians. How many were there?
[00:48:16] WS: To be Frank, I don't know. Let's say three.
[00:48:19] DC: Three?
[00:48:20] WS: Four.
[00:48:21] DC: Thirty people. Three soldiers.
[00:48:24] WS: Yeah. Yeah. Just among us.
[00:48:29] DC: Were you surprised at what you saw in America? Did you expect what you saw? Or what was your impression?
[00:48:37] WS: Oh, I was surely very eager to see what was going on. So, at first, we were beefed a bit that incoming into New York Harbor we couldn't be on deck and look at it.
[00:48:47] DC: See the skyline.
[00:48:48] WS: Skyline. And at the other side, that means our cabin did not have any port hole. We couldn't look out at all. So, it did take several hours until we finally could go on deck and see the skyline. But at that time, you were already anchored. You didn't see how coming in or the Statue of Liberty or all that you normally expect to see. So, we had to be under deck at that time. And then going with this train, it's very interesting. It's going through small villages and seeing how the train stops in a village that is right close to the roadway that is without the big railroad station. We did find out that most of the road crossings did not have to [pass standard?].
[00:49:46] DC: Looked pretty primitive, I guess.
[00:49:44] WS: It was just a completely different deal. And then the wideness of the country. You could ride for hours without seeing much on cities or heavy stations. That was very interesting. Then in New Orleans we had an hour overlay so we could go out of the car and just go around the block, so to speak, without contacting anybody. So, we didn't see anything from New Orleans besides going across the railroad from the Mississippi. So, it was a very interesting trip. Finally coming to West Texas and the desert and then finally winding up in Fort Bliss by there where there's not much green.
[00:50:32] DC: When you got to Bliss, did you go out to the launch stands much? Or did you stay right at El Paso?
[00:50:39] WS: I personally did stay very much in Fort Bliss proper. I belonged to a group which was supposed to plan for test stands for the ramjet. It was this project which we were supposed to work on. So, we had to look through catalogs and discussing it also with certain company representatives on what type of instrumentation we would be using to build up test stands for ramjet development. And having the test stands built in a way that they could be put, either built right away on it or could be put on flatbeds in order to move them up—
[00:51:30] DC: So you started looking through catalogs and instruments?
[00:51:34] WS: Yeah. All right. So, I was supposed to head up the instrumentation group for the test stands of the ramjet development. So, I was not in the design group for, let me say, it was just the test stands. So that's where most of my assignment was for. We then were building up in Fort Bliss test stands, as you probably had heard from others already, a small wind tunnel, blow down type wind tunnel, which was a unique deal also. Because at that time we were very few and we did not have much help. So, for example, the little wind tunnel, it's a blow down one of these bottles which had high pressure air and then blowing it down and having Schlieren pictures and making, I was building up a little Schlieren apparatus for it and having three pressure measurements on the models, which was the intake type nozzle for the run track. It was supposed to be a supersonic one. So, all the shock waves should be shown here. And building up the instrumentation for it, that means I personally was my own designer and technician. I was cabling it up. I was doing the test running the test.
[00:53:01] DC: It was like the old days at Peenemünde; starting from scratch all over again.
[00:53:04] WS: So actually, during the test of this little, I guess it did take us two years to build it up. It was a little shed where the test stand was in, the [bottles?] outside and a measuring trailer connected to it is about 25 [?] in the oscillograph. All remotely to be controlled. And we were actually three fellows running the test stand. Max Novak was one. In charge, was Herman Weidner and myself. So, the three of us were running the test. We were inside of the test stand and taking the manipulations. Max Novak opening up the big valves. We sent him to turning and so on. And Weidner being in charge of it. And it was a tremendous noise in this little shed. And the roof was nearly falling in. I recall only that when at that time Colonel Toftoy was supposed to visit us, he was not permitted to be doing the test inside of the shed.
[00:53:22] DC: When did you first meet Toftoy? What was your experience with him?
[00:53:26] WS: To be frank, I personally did not have too many contacts with him. I surely met him it was quite... [coughing] Sorry about the interruption. You were asking when I met at that time Colonel Toftoy. Actually, was during some meeting in Fort Bliss, not prior to it. We had what was called certain [?] room, main assemblies where everybody was coming together. At that time Major Hamill was telling us how things were going, what we should do and should not do. He was our commanding officer. But surely Colonel Toftoy came for a visit once in a while.
[00:55:16] DC: Hamill was more of the [inaudible].
[00:55:19] WS: Hamill surely was the one whom we had practically daily contact with. That Colonel Toftoy was actually in Washington or somewhere else. What other names do you recall of the Americans or GE people? Any other people there?
[00:53:37] WS: All right, we had quite some contact with the GE people. A fellow, unfortunately, not remembering too well the names. I surely remember Dr. Porter's name. I really do not know when I saw him or if I saw him at all. But there were certain other ones with GE and we were working together with them very closely. But I am sorry that after 25 years and I am getting old, I am not shaking with my head yet, but the memory of the names is always something bad.
[00:56:13] DC: Well, what were you doing with GE? Were they taking your sketches and making drawings?
[00:56:17] WS: Yeah, that’s right. They were the design group. They were the ordering group. They were just like a support group. What mostly like a support group does. I do not know if this one was supposed to be the role or the proper designation for it. Actually, you could call it they were in charge of it and we were helping them. That is more how it looked like. But they were the ones really behind it, building up and seeing that things were built up and also providing the manpower to others.
[00:56:52] DC: Were there a few people out there at that time from GE? Where did they come from? Did they come in from—
[00:56:58] WS: They had a special place where they did stay at in Fort Bliss. But… I am sorry. At that time, I was more in the planning work. I did have certain contacts, but maybe I did not care that much or I forgot about it. How that was organized. I left it up to the Schilling [center?] and the Heimburg [center?]. I was worrying about it and I heard about their problems.
[00:57:28] DC: Then you worked on this ramjet program for quite a while, then you eventually came to Huntsville. Did you work on anything else at Fort Bliss besides the ramjet?
[00:57:38] WS: No, it was essentially this ramjet program. We finally did build our test stands. The low-down wind tunnel was a local one. The other test stands, the ignition test stand and the compression test stand, were built on flat beds so that we could move with them. We actually did. I do not know if it was ‘48 or ‘49. We did move up in the California mountains close to Bishop, up to 10,000 feet high. The purpose was to run the ramjet at a higher elevation. The test stands were made movable and so we were spending a late summer. It was not no wind, but at least there was no snow.
[00:58:30] DC: What part of California was this?
[00:58:34] WS: Bishop is the closest part of it, the closest city. From there I did go up, let's say, 10 miles up in the mountains, close to the King's Canyon. There was a lake. Unfortunately, here again, remembering names is something bad for me. Maybe I can point it out over here.
[00:59:01] [recording cuts]
[00:59:03] DC: Like the Navajo program, did you have any contact with any other [inaudible]?
[00:59:08] WS: I personally did not have any. Thinking back, there might have been a few other things. Especially during the first year, once in a while, a [wizard?] was announced coming from somewhere across the country wanting to know what we were doing. For example, I recall that one fellow was very much interested in servo and this line reversal machine which we were building for Kummersdorf. Or how the level gauges were built up. This type of thing. We were trying to get information from it. There was some scanty type of literature available, but most of it they did try to get out of the discussions.
[00:59:53] DC: What was the final conclusion of the ramjet program? Did it really work out? It was finally cancelled?
[00:59:59] WS: It was finally cancelled. Now don't ask me. Mr. Heimburg probably could answer the question or somebody why it–
[1:00:08] [recording cut]
[END]
Duration
1:00:22
Files
Collection
Citation
“Sieber, Werner,” The UAH Archives and Special Collections, accessed October 11, 2026, https://oralhistory.uah.edu/items/show/645.